Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 965469)

It is an a pay rate alone is not the answer, at least not mine.

Originally Posted by johnso29 (Post 965419)

So in short, you're saying money? How exactly are we going to just walk up to management out of Sec 6 & ask for raises? On what grounds would we do so? Can we even do it? IDK, that's why I'm asking.

Would you be happy if DALPA did ask for mid contract restoration, & the company said no? Just curious. Looking for pilot group input.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 965439)

My guess is that the "What are you going to give up to get that?" was in the form of; "Are you willing to accept a an extension?" Maybe not, but the reality is that DAL will want a quid for a respectable raise. It is not giving something up, except to draw out the PWA.

The membership needs to decide if they would want to do that.

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 965476)

Our union leadership goes in and simply says: "Bankruptcy wages are over. We're here to negotiate a significant pay bump outside of Section 6. We're willing to give nothing in return even though we're in mid contract. Just like we gave huge pay cuts to you for nothing in return outside of Section 6. If you agree, our pilots increased motivation will help with a lot of your p!ss poor managerial decision. If you disagree, our pilots lack of motivation to help will not go unnoticed by you."

The problem is that our union is incredibly weak. IMO, they are nearly indiscernable from management.

Carl

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 965472)

Where did ftb say that a pay rate alone is the answer?

Originally Posted by 80ktsClamp (Post 965472)

Where did ftb say that a pay rate alone is the answer?

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 965480)

Of course Delta will want a quid...We wanted a quid as well for our givebacks prior to BK, but we gave pay away for almost nothing in return because we decided it was best for the company. Delta needs to be reminded that although they may want a quid for the mid contract pay bump, they need to be unselfish and do what's right for the operation and thus the company. Just like we did.

We need to have the discussion. But our weak union leadership will NOT.

Carl

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 965487)

He didn't I was agreeing, beleive it or not! :eek:

Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 965456)

Wow, really well said. But now ALPA's challenge is to send out the spin minions like acl65pilot to "help you understand" the correct interpretation of our Section 1. It's a challenge because if you interpret it wrongly (in ALPA's eyes), then you might have to allege a violation and file a grievance. And we can't have that! After all...Delta might stop calling our union leadership "great new and innovative thinkers."

Carl

Originally Posted by gloopy (Post 965281)

I agree with almost all of that. I do see the potential issues of subdividing every section, and I'm not in favor of doing that for the reasons you describe. However, I think section 3 is unique in that it is so often used to mask (and sometimes to create) massive fault lines in our foundation. I would say section 1 is more important, but that is not the section that is used to bait the hook for a pilot group's future demise...section 3 is, often to the detriment of section 1 (and every other section...see below).

I would not agree that scope is more important to junior pilots though. Unless you are a 777A/747A with so much seniority that you could still hold a line with weekends and holidays off in the same categoty even if potentially thousands of company pilots were suddenly on the street, then you have a huge stake in scope. Even if you are "furlough proof" you can (and many to most will) be downgraded, lineholder to reserve, smaller equipment, changed categories and maybe now FORCED to commute (no it isn't always an essenctric Murphy Brown "lifestyle choice"), lose your weekends off, suddenly have to work holidays, etc.

When junior pilots are furloughed, the vast majority of the list (bottom 90-95%+) take a hit one way or another. Scope is every pilot's issue because no matter what other section you like the most (pay tables, work rules, retirement, other bennies, etc) the negative effects of outsourcing serve to undermine the gains in every other section because that's what outsourcing is for in the first place...to give management relief against every single section of your contract in direct proportion to the section 1 relief that you grant them. The more good stuff that's in the other sections, the more exemptions in section 1 are used to reduce the pilot group's benefit of the other sections.

Scope is the most important, but pay is the shiny penny laid carefully just before a huge crack in the sidewalk and we keep tripping on it again and again.