Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
06-29-2011 | 08:20 PM
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From: B-7ER JFK
06-29-2011 | 08:22 PM
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Pay rates are great, but I think we should mostly be focusing on other ways to increase compensation, like bringing back significant night pay, big nums for international pay, and a huge (x4) increase in per diem. And pay from doors closed to open. Larger minimum calendar day, not duty period. These are all ways to make significantly more cash, some tax advantaged, with lower increases to hourly rates. That way the company gets to tell the financial community that we only gave x when the reality is much more.
06-29-2011 | 08:30 PM
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From: Light Chop
If nothing changes in either contract and AirTran guys get
matched by 2013, every 12 yr captain at SWA will make less (per hour) than a 747 captain at DAL.
HOWEVER
The SWA Captains will make more (per hour)than all the DAL A330, 767-400, 767-300/200 captains.
I think it is fair to say that AirTran guys will be making more than DAL widebody Captains in 2013.
Straight hourly rates, not annual compensation:
DAL payrates eff 01/01/2011
SWA payrates eff 2011??
12yr DAL 747 Captain $217.07
12yr SWA 737 Captain $211.98
12yr DAL 330 Captain $205.04
12yr DAL 767 Captain $181.69
12yr DAL 737 Captain $175.13 (-900)
12yr DAL 737 Captain $174.23 (-800/700)
12yr DAL M88 Captain $161.23
More tidbits:
Reserve guarantee DAL 70 hours
Reserve guarantee SWA 79 hours
matched by 2013, every 12 yr captain at SWA will make less (per hour) than a 747 captain at DAL.
HOWEVER
The SWA Captains will make more (per hour)than all the DAL A330, 767-400, 767-300/200 captains.
I think it is fair to say that AirTran guys will be making more than DAL widebody Captains in 2013.
Straight hourly rates, not annual compensation:
DAL payrates eff 01/01/2011
SWA payrates eff 2011??
12yr DAL 747 Captain $217.07
12yr SWA 737 Captain $211.98
12yr DAL 330 Captain $205.04
12yr DAL 767 Captain $181.69
12yr DAL 737 Captain $175.13 (-900)
12yr DAL 737 Captain $174.23 (-800/700)
12yr DAL M88 Captain $161.23
More tidbits:
Reserve guarantee DAL 70 hours
Reserve guarantee SWA 79 hours
Uh, not exactly.
According to APC pay tables:
AirTran 737 rate:$163
Delta 737 rate: $174
Delta 747 rate: $217
AirTran is being operated as a wholly owned subsidiary (Guadalupe holdings). I expect that they will eventually come under the SWA contract/pay rates, but there hasn't been a JCBA negotiated. The history of negotiating that document isn't very pretty for major/national airlines. AAA/AWA have been at it since 2005. UAL/CAL have been at it since May of 2010. The SWA/AAI integration has and will continue to sorely test the "culture" just like it has everywhere else. The threads on this board are proof of that.
According to APC pay tables:
AirTran 737 rate:$163
Delta 737 rate: $174
Delta 747 rate: $217
AirTran is being operated as a wholly owned subsidiary (Guadalupe holdings). I expect that they will eventually come under the SWA contract/pay rates, but there hasn't been a JCBA negotiated. The history of negotiating that document isn't very pretty for major/national airlines. AAA/AWA have been at it since 2005. UAL/CAL have been at it since May of 2010. The SWA/AAI integration has and will continue to sorely test the "culture" just like it has everywhere else. The threads on this board are proof of that.
I didn't say AirTran pilots ARE making...I said AirTran pilots WILL be making more than our 777/744 Captains. You insinuate that AirTran pilots won't be brought up to SWA rates anytime soon...I disagree. And when they are, you can trot out your standard blather that they aren't our peers.
Carl
Carl
Carl, I find this laughable. What makes you think AirTran pilots will be making more than 777 Captains in 2013? SWA pilots maybe, but not AirTran....
Just because DAL gave you guys parity on day 1, don't think that is typical. I suspect AirTran guys will phase in over ~3 years to reach SWA pay parity. Mark my word.
You were lucky... they won't be.
Just because DAL gave you guys parity on day 1, don't think that is typical. I suspect AirTran guys will phase in over ~3 years to reach SWA pay parity. Mark my word.
You were lucky... they won't be.
Exactly. Carl asserts as fact that which is not. He gets called on it, and the guy that wrote a "kiss and tell" book complains that the detes are getting left out...
For Buzzpat, the SWA rate is listed at $210 per hour on this site. Helpful? I want to make a lot more than that. You?
For Buzzpat, the SWA rate is listed at $210 per hour on this site. Helpful? I want to make a lot more than that. You?
1) We're stuck with current rate table until at least 2013, which is true is it not?
2) By the time we get new pay rates AirTran pilots will transition to SWA pay rates, will they not?
3) AirTran pilots therefore will be making SWA pay which is higher than DAL pay for 747/777 A's, which is true if you you can believe APC numbers:
$210/hr for SWA x 78 hours (min pay) x 12 months is greater than DAL 747/777 $217/hr x 70 hours x 12 months.
Therefore: SWA 737 A $196K > DAL 747/777 A $182K.
So by 2013, won't we still be on our current rates while AirTran A's make more than our DAL 777/747 A's?
Therefore: SWA 737 A $196K > DAL 747/777 A $182K.
06-29-2011 | 08:40 PM
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From: DAL FO
I'm so confused. I read Carl's post as saying:
1) We're stuck with current rate table until at least 2013, which is true is it not?
2) By the time we get new pay rates AirTran pilots will transition to SWA pay rates, will they not?
3) AirTran pilots therefore will be making SWA pay which is higher than DAL pay for 747/777 A's, which is true if you you can believe APC numbers:
1) We're stuck with current rate table until at least 2013, which is true is it not?
2) By the time we get new pay rates AirTran pilots will transition to SWA pay rates, will they not?
3) AirTran pilots therefore will be making SWA pay which is higher than DAL pay for 747/777 A's, which is true if you you can believe APC numbers:
$210/hr for SWA x 78 hours (min pay) x 12 months is greater than DAL 747/777 $217/hr x 70 hours x 12 months.
Therefore: SWA 737 A $196K > DAL 747/777 A $182K.
So don't SWA pilots make more than our 747/777 A's?Therefore: SWA 737 A $196K > DAL 747/777 A $182K.
06-29-2011 | 08:41 PM
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From: DAL FO
Turd Uphill
BTW Eck4Life, your comment really made me laugh. Well done sir!
06-29-2011 | 09:06 PM
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From: Light Chop
I have to agree 100%.
I told our reps what my number is and it is above SWA +1%. For us to get a yes vote they will need to fix everything else and beast the old/current SWA rates by a good margin.
Just remember when filling out the survey, Scope and Pay in that order.
I told our reps what my number is and it is above SWA +1%. For us to get a yes vote they will need to fix everything else and beast the old/current SWA rates by a good margin.
Just remember when filling out the survey, Scope and Pay in that order.
I say the TA presented will not best SWA pay in any narrowbody category and I'll be surprised if it bests SWA in any category and scope will at best remain the same but I think the language will need to be reviewed with a microscope, which will be hard since it's so big.
that's what she said.
06-29-2011 | 09:23 PM
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From: 777B
Will we see SWA + 1% in 2013 and will it be on the 88, 737 or 747/777?
I say the TA presented will not best SWA pay in any narrowbody category and I'll be surprised if it bests SWA in any category and scope will at best remain the same but I think the language will need to be reviewed with a microscope, which will be hard since it's so big.
that's what she said.
I say the TA presented will not best SWA pay in any narrowbody category and I'll be surprised if it bests SWA in any category and scope will at best remain the same but I think the language will need to be reviewed with a microscope, which will be hard since it's so big.
that's what she said.
If you keep talking like this, someone might accuse you of liking........Donuts
06-30-2011 | 01:48 AM
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I'm so confused about this interaction. I read Carl's post as saying:
1) We're stuck with current rate table until at least 2013, which is true is it not?
2) By the time we get new pay rates AirTran pilots will transition to SWA pay rates, will they not?
3) AirTran pilots therefore will be making SWA pay which is higher than DAL pay for 747/777 A's, which is true if you you can believe APC numbers:
1) We're stuck with current rate table until at least 2013, which is true is it not?
2) By the time we get new pay rates AirTran pilots will transition to SWA pay rates, will they not?
3) AirTran pilots therefore will be making SWA pay which is higher than DAL pay for 747/777 A's, which is true if you you can believe APC numbers:
$210/hr for SWA x 78 hours (min pay) x 12 months is greater than DAL 747/777 $217/hr x 70 hours x 12 months.
Therefore: SWA 737 A $196K > DAL 747/777 A $182K.
So by 2013, won't we still be on our current rates while AirTran A's make more than our DAL 777/747 A's?Therefore: SWA 737 A $196K > DAL 747/777 A $182K.
IF we don't get an interim agreement before 2013, and
IF AirTran pilots are brought to SWA pay parity in the next 18 months, and
IF you are only looking at the 10-15% of 777 pilots on reserve...
This is more typical Carl math. Only in Carl land, is $210 greater than $217.
Having said all that, I agree 100% that we should be making SWA rates on our comparable airplane and we should be indexed up from there for the bigger equipment. But if you think the donut boys, who are trying to ensure we will be having a representational vote right in the middle of Section 6 negotiations, are the avenue to success, there's nothing more I can say.
06-30-2011 | 02:35 AM
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From: maddoggy dog
Why is this math so challenging?
IF we don't get an interim agreement before 2013, and
IF AirTran pilots are brought to SWA pay parity in the next 18 months, and
IF you are only looking at the 10-15% of 777 pilots on reserve...
This is more typical Carl math. Only in Carl land, is $210 greater than $217.
Having said all that, I agree 100% that we should be making SWA rates on our comparable airplane and we should be indexed up from there for the bigger equipment. But if you think the donut boys, who are trying to ensure we will be having a representational vote right in the middle of Section 6 negotiations, are the avenue to success, there's nothing more I can say.
IF we don't get an interim agreement before 2013, and
IF AirTran pilots are brought to SWA pay parity in the next 18 months, and
IF you are only looking at the 10-15% of 777 pilots on reserve...
This is more typical Carl math. Only in Carl land, is $210 greater than $217.
Having said all that, I agree 100% that we should be making SWA rates on our comparable airplane and we should be indexed up from there for the bigger equipment. But if you think the donut boys, who are trying to ensure we will be having a representational vote right in the middle of Section 6 negotiations, are the avenue to success, there's nothing more I can say.
Your defending a $7.00 difference. Instead you should be disgusted by this number. Who would've thought an Airtran pilot would be making "almost" as much as Carl. Epic fail.
Hoser
Don't worry Carl, I got it. The W2 is what matters and Swa/Airtran, when combined, will be higher. Even a simple Canadian can figure that out. (-:
06-30-2011 | 03:04 AM
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But I am equally disgusted by the number. If, or when, Carl ever states facts to make a point, I'll leave him alone.
And I AM disgusted by that number. But also disgusted that opinions are so loosely [or losely for the spelling challenged] thrown around on this board as fact.
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