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Non-confrontation should be more like that of a circus animal trainer and their elephant. we're the elephant and management the trainer, train us, tell us what you want, we'll do it. Stab us with that bullhook and we may throw our 14,000 pounds around and may convince others to join a stampede. So just live knowing we all want this circus to do great, we're willing to do as you request and do it with a smile but just live in fear of this happening at any moment:
http://www.guy-sports.com/fun_pictures/elephant_car.jpg |
Originally Posted by Check Essential
(Post 1018907)
DALPA has just spent the last few years investing in "constructive engagement" in order to avoid that exact scenario. We supposedly have an excellent relationship with management. The whole idea is to have a contract done by the amendable date and without all the rancor and disruption.
If we aren't clearly on the way to having this thing done by the amendable date then Moak and O'Malley and their whole non-confrontational philosophy of "partnering" with management will have lost all credibility. The DPA will waltz right in with an overwhelming vote. I don't think it will be that easy. If we come in with a low ball offer that keeps us a bargain compared to SWA and our JV partners, it may be quick. We did cooperate pretty well to get the SOC in record time, and I remember someone saying that would help us capture $2 billion a year in synergies. How about us getting a portion of that? Fill out the survey and tell them what we want and deserve. Filling out a DPA card can also send a message. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1018921)
I would bet that in the next 10 years there will be not 1 but 2 more mergers or partial mergers at Delta. Get ready for many more years of SLI arguments.
So I think Hawaiian and we're done. Just my bet. |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1018916)
I should have posted the average pilot is credited 1100 for pay purposes. Much like SW pilots at Delta make extra pay in a variety of ways.
A pilot flies 80 hours credit a month basic flying lets say without really pushing to pick up extra. Flies the same in a vacation month as a majority seem to do. Now he is around 1060 for the year. Picks up 10 to 12 hours more for training. Gets a couple trips with 20 hours extra in reroute pay and he is past 1100 credit hours without a single GS. Add in two GS's a quarter paying say 30 pay only hours each and you now have a pilot well beyond 1300 credit hours for the year. Ask Carl what some of his peers on the 747 have flown so far this year. As of their 15 July check coming up some will be over a 1000 already for this tax year. Other fly a lot less. Some pilots fly a lot less but the 2010 average was actually over 1100 total pay hours. If your going to use what SW averages per year then you need to use what Delta pilots average per year. If you going into negotiations with the company and you try and throw bull**** numbers out there your going to get your a.. handed to you. The same thing applies for dealing with arbitrators. The company will know to the minute what the average Delta pilot is crediting. They will know to the dime our pilot costs are compared to SW on a per block hour basis. There wont be any dispute on all the numbers. Its all available to both sides. And what about the JV partners? Don't they do the same thing we do? How are they paid? How is their contract? We probably could ask them. The DPA could ask them too. I hope things are negotiated quickly, but you don't go into it with a weak hand. You go in asking for a lot, and then negotiate from there. |
Originally Posted by Carl Spackler
(Post 1018875)
Yes you could. You would then be in control of your local union...which would still be controlled by ALPA which controls your finances and access to experts. And you'd also still be controlled by an organization that represents the regionals and must see to it that they prosper as well. That's what you just refuse to state because you know that's the deal breaker. If you could "fix" that at ALPA national, then you'd have my ear.
Another straw man, and I know you know it. How can ANY of us change what might ultimately end up in the opener before the opener is exchanged? That process is totally controlled by the MEC. Whether they use our survey data is irrelevant because they are under no obligation to show us that data, or abide by it. Again, you're using a false choice to disparage our in-house union attempt. "Not even attempted?" As I've said above, all ANY of us outside of the MEC can do is fill out the survey...nothing else. Carl While I agree with many of your arguments, the time might be here for the DPA to jump in and start whatever change they can muster. The chances are fair that the closer we get to openers, the more reticent people will be to jump ship. They should take their membership, put some pressure where they think it's needed, and rattle the cages that needed to be rattled. Then, down the road, if it doesn't look like the issues with ALPA National can be fixed, THEN you take your ball and go home. Plus, it's a much easier sell to the pilot group because you can look back on 2-3 years of accomplishments. The DPA doesn't have a cause celebre. They need to earn some stripes first, and getting involved and making popular changes would win over a lot of folks. Nu |
Originally Posted by sailingfun
(Post 1018916)
I should have posted the average pilot is credited 1100 for pay purposes. Much like SW pilots at Delta make extra pay in a variety of ways.
A pilot flies 80 hours credit a month basic flying lets say without really pushing to pick up extra. Flies the same in a vacation month as a majority seem to do. Now he is around 1060 for the year. Picks up 10 to 12 hours more for training. Gets a couple trips with 20 hours extra in reroute pay and he is past 1100 credit hours without a single GS. Add in two GS's a quarter paying say 30 pay only hours each and you now have a pilot well beyond 1300 credit hours for the year. Ask Carl what some of his peers on the 747 have flown so far this year. As of their 15 July check coming up some will be over a 1000 already for this tax year. Other fly a lot less. Some pilots fly a lot less but the 2010 average was actually over 1100 total pay hours. If your going to use what SW averages per year then you need to use what Delta pilots average per year. If you going into negotiations with the company and you try and throw bull**** numbers out there your going to get your a.. handed to you. The same thing applies for dealing with arbitrators. The company will know to the minute what the average Delta pilot is crediting. They will know to the dime our pilot costs are compared to SW on a per block hour basis. There wont be any dispute on all the numbers. Its all available to both sides. ---- But as to the numbers, I don't have SWA true average as promoted by SWAPA, but lets take the 1100 credit hour average for Delta pilots in 2010 and play with it. In 2010 I'd made $88/hr. On reserve that'd been $73,920. In 2010, okay 2011 I don't have 2010 SWA numbers but sure its not far off, but SWA pays a 3rd year pilot $104/hr, At 1100 hours of credit, 31% higher than min reserve of 840 hours, it jumps to $96,800. On reserve they'd make $97,344 on min reserve of 78 hours / mo. I'm figuring the 31% number is a reasonable number to use as they have that hold TFP thing and probably a lot better credit than us? Fair? At 1226 hours of credit, took our 31% number and applied it here, they'd have $127,474. So in 2010 I come in: $24K less as a reserve pilot then their reserve pilot, and Using this years longevity and pay charts I'm:$30K less as a line holder to their line holders on average credit of 1100 hours. $30K down on reserve, and Had I had 1 more year of longevity I'd be$40K down on average regular pilot pay. Down $38K as a reserve pilot and Not sure if a $50K pay raise will cut it after all. Thanks Sailing. :D$49K as an average regular line holder. The disparity grows! |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1018870)
I'm find negotiating in public, because we're negotiating with two groups. A company and those among us who push back against our list of wants.
I personally want $50,000 more per year. How about that? I will settle for $40K if I get scope improved and 51+ seat jets reduced to 120 in 2014 and 45 in 2016 and 0 in 2018. No way in hell right? If every pilot got $50K thats 12,262 x $50K = $613 million. Outrageous. Unaffordable. Impossible. Be quiet. That's a 154% pay raise. Ignorant FTB. :rolleyes: ... You are definitely worth that and more. I just want to point out your math isn't quite right because a $50k raise for you would have to equate to an approximately $100k raise for Carl in that big two story boeing. I am all for Carl getting that raise too. I am concerned that we will get proffered a deal that gives us SWA plus rates but we lose scope protections. I know that I would vote no, as most on this board, however, there are a lot of old, senior pilots here that I am afraid would silently vote yes in order to get as much money before retiring and thus pulling up the ladder. I know that everyone says they are for scope, not going to give an inch, but when it comes down to it, I haven't run across any pilot that actually voted yes for our absolute POS bankruptcy contract at NWA. No-one. :rolleyes: |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1018886)
I think Hawaiian. Because then you have Hawaiian and still have free milk and a cow with AS.
Yes. I said Free Milk and A Cow. You're welcome. Ferd? Is that you? |
As far as getting a contract on the amendable date, I think there is a possibility (slim though it might be) of it happening. Think about these upcoming negotiations from a management standpoint. They have got to know that there is going to be a significant cost increase in the pilot contract but, if it can be completed before AMR and UCal come to a deal, more than likely we would be the low cost pilot group out of the three..... Am I totally out to lunch or is it possible?
Denny |
Originally Posted by forgot to bid
(Post 1018638)
The contract is kind of a big deal though. Trumps hiring and new planes.
I agree, but maybe we could have a delta contract forum and separate it from this one? |
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