Here's the problem with that thesis Nu: The threat has to have teeth or it lacks credibility. The mere fact that your premise hopes to effect change within ALPA via ALPA's own processes shows ALPA that you will not be going "across the road." It also shows what ALPA hopes most, and that is each succeeding generation thinks their attempt at changing ALPA will actually work.

Your right that money talks, but the money is totally controlled by ALPA national. You're not going to control anything because you're asking for ALPA to send back your own money. That won't happen in the DPA. Delta pilots' dues money will go directly to our own union...and nobody else first.

Carl

You could be right. Will be interesting.

Carl

And you've been wrong now for quite some time.

Not true at all and you know it. I'll tell you what IS true though...you keep trying to bait your fellow pilots into a strategy (fixing ALPA from within) that you know full well will fail. Most of your fellow pilots are smarter than that. Our energies will be directed in ways that will actually effect change...not just make you think you're changing. Why it is you do this is an open question.

Carl

I'm find negotiating in public, because we're negotiating with two groups. A company and those among us who push back against our list of wants.

I personally want $50,000 more per year. How about that?

I will settle for $40K if I get scope improved and 51+ seat jets reduced to 120 in 2014 and 45 in 2016 and 0 in 2018.

No way in hell right? If every pilot got $50K thats 12,262 x $50K = $613 million. Outrageous. Unaffordable. Impossible. Be quiet. That's a 154% pay raise. Ignorant FTB. :rolleyes:

But all I've asked for is SWA W2 pay. I make around $75K on min pay now, just want it up to around SWA style $115-$125K for my given longevity.

If I say "equal pay for equal work," I'll settle for Southwest pay plus significant scope improvements then most don't do the math and now they have something tangible to look at, us versus a domestic low costish carrier moving in next door.

Now do I care that's out in the public? Not one bit. My x factor is scope, you don't know what pay I'd have to find acceptable to not have scope improved.

Southwest 717 or 735 pay should not be $50,000 more than the 149 seat MD88, that's my contention. I won't put words in anyone's mouth but I see more pro ALPA guys here hint at believing SWA pay is not enough, that's great if true, but do people cringe if I demand $50,000 a year pay raise for not doing anything more than I do now?

I think people do cringe. Just an observation and why it's best to talk SWA pay plus SWA scope because the mere mention of Southwest parity puts a lot of people in a difficult position to argue we don't deserve equal pay.

1100 hours a year on average? I fly 250. I'm not the only one. What does that do the overall average?

Yes you could. You would then be in control of your local union...which would still be controlled by ALPA which controls your finances and access to experts. And you'd also still be controlled by an organization that represents the regionals and must see to it that they prosper as well. That's what you just refuse to state because you know that's the deal breaker. If you could "fix" that at ALPA national, then you'd have my ear.

Another straw man, and I know you know it. How can ANY of us change what might ultimately end up in the opener before the opener is exchanged? That process is totally controlled by the MEC. Whether they use our survey data is irrelevant because they are under no obligation to show us that data, or abide by it.

Again, you're using a false choice to disparage our in-house union attempt. "Not even attempted?" As I've said above, all ANY of us outside of the MEC can do is fill out the survey...nothing else.

Carl

One thing to remember is our pay is directly tied to our competition in Atlanta.

If we asked for $50K increase per pilot, we'd be reminded of how much AirTran pilots make and why that can't happen.

Now that AirTran pilots make more than our 747/777 pilots for flying domestic 717s and 737s, we should be getting pay parity for equal aircraft and mission flying, right?

Yeah, I'm in the same boat (for now). I think I flew just under 300 last year. You and I are probably outliers on the low end. And I'm sure there are some outliers on the high end too. But I can just about guarantee you it doesn't average to 91.7 hours for the whole group.

Also, where would the United States be if it's residents could not elect their President or Senator, just their House of Representative member.

I think the founders put in a system that allows for a bloodless revolution if so desired every four years. I think we should be guaranteed the right to have a bloodless revolution from time to time within our own union and not be relegated to recalling one member of many in the hopes of eventually effecting change.

Or affecting change.

Damnit I don't care grammar nazi's, if it was meant to be clear they should've made it clear. :D

Back when I was going through indoc in 2007, a top executive used to come in and spend an hour talking to the new class. When specifically asked about a future merger, of course he denied one was in the works. But, when someone pressed him as to who the most likely merger candidates would be if it happened, he said "The ones that are the most interesting are NWA, Hawaiian and Alaska" in that order. Just an interesting tidbit.

Personally I don't think DAL is interested in a merger until after the JFK terminal project and the LGA hub are up and running...then they need to turn to the weak spot in our system...the West Coast. That could certainly involve AS or Hawaiian.