Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
08-01-2011, 04:41 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Look at their respective balance sheets, pilot contracts, and corporate history.
08-01-2011, 04:49 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by tsquare
This is a very interesting post. Everything in red highlights what ALPA national does or does not do.. what they can or cannot do. Basically, you then indemnify the national group with the 2 items highlighted in blue "The ATI pilots are the ones that have to decide" So what you say is confusing here. ALPA does nothing other than to recommend. The individual pilots have to make the decision. So tell me again what real purpose the national association has? It is not a flamebait question, but rather a serious one.
1) On issues that affect all pilots, ALPA has the ability to influence legislation so as to cause the greatest benefit (or in some cases the least harm) to the piloting profession.
2) On issues that only affect a single pilot group, ALPA has a team of professionals, second to none in my opinion, to recommend the best course of action.
3) Unlike certain law firms that tell their pilots what they want to hear, ALPA will tell the pilot group the unbiased straight answer, then the pilots decide. But IF the pilots decide opposite the recommendation, they (ALPA National) will then support that decision and defend it to the best of their abilities.
Originally Posted by tsquare
And then there is the last thing I highlighted in green. You say that ALPA has a responsibility... what are the ramifications of that "responsibility" if they fail to deliver? I'll answer it for you.. nothing because they are simply recommendations based on their judgements.. and they have no real fallout if they bugger it up. Nice gig if you can get it, and get paid to boot.
08-01-2011, 04:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,462
Originally Posted by tsquare
Corporate history is irrelevant. Balance sheets are irrelevant. Pilot contracts.. maybe, but fact is that both fly the same equipment, and it sounds like you believe that since SWA has been profitable for tha last umpteen years and they get paid more that that legitimizes a stapling of the ATI guys... really?
I said they are NOT equals, imo.
I ALSO said the current proposed SLI is far from my version of a fair integration, imo.
Please don't try to equate the two.
08-01-2011, 04:55 AM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: 777B
Posts: 7,775
Originally Posted by alfaromeo
Scambo,
Once again, nice rant but wrong on the facts. Airtran's merger/fragmentation language was from their days as an independent union where they left themselves quite open. ALPA only negotiated a contract after the merger was announced and Airtran would have been barred from changing merger protections. I have said this many times and I will say it again, Section 1 covers more than RJ's and code shares. For instance, our Section 1 forces an acquiring carrier to continue to fly the same amount of block hours per year after the acquisition.
Because Airtran's independent union had poor merger language, it is possible for SWA to operate them as an independent unit forever. They can also whittle away at their assets until there is nothing left of the carrier.
SWA management threw Airtran pilots under the bus. They bought off their angry first officer club that is upset that they haven't upgraded in 5 years and that SWA's growth is stalled due to their higher cost structure. So SWA management treated the SWA pilots as real SWA pilots and the Airtran pilots as scum.
Airtran approved this list in much the same way as if a mugger had a gun to my head I would approve of him taking my wallet. ALPA did everything they were asked to do. Please talk to the Airtran MEC and the Airtran Merger Committee, they will tell you first hand what ALPA did for them.
Unfortunately, they were dealt a weak hand because they had a weak independent union that left them with weak merger protections. SWAPA and SWA management decided that there aren't enough Airtran pilots to ruin the culture at SWA so they put a gun to their head and said take this or else. The arrogance of SWA management and their pilots is once again on full display.
Why would ALPA throw them under the bus? Give me the motive. No one even considers that SWAPA would join ALPA so you can't even come up with that weak excuse.
Airtran had a TA with Airtran management about 5 or 6 years ago and the pilots voted it down. It will always get better if you vote no, right? Guess what, sometimes you dig your own grave.
Once again, nice rant but wrong on the facts. Airtran's merger/fragmentation language was from their days as an independent union where they left themselves quite open. ALPA only negotiated a contract after the merger was announced and Airtran would have been barred from changing merger protections. I have said this many times and I will say it again, Section 1 covers more than RJ's and code shares. For instance, our Section 1 forces an acquiring carrier to continue to fly the same amount of block hours per year after the acquisition.
Because Airtran's independent union had poor merger language, it is possible for SWA to operate them as an independent unit forever. They can also whittle away at their assets until there is nothing left of the carrier.
SWA management threw Airtran pilots under the bus. They bought off their angry first officer club that is upset that they haven't upgraded in 5 years and that SWA's growth is stalled due to their higher cost structure. So SWA management treated the SWA pilots as real SWA pilots and the Airtran pilots as scum.
Airtran approved this list in much the same way as if a mugger had a gun to my head I would approve of him taking my wallet. ALPA did everything they were asked to do. Please talk to the Airtran MEC and the Airtran Merger Committee, they will tell you first hand what ALPA did for them.
Unfortunately, they were dealt a weak hand because they had a weak independent union that left them with weak merger protections. SWAPA and SWA management decided that there aren't enough Airtran pilots to ruin the culture at SWA so they put a gun to their head and said take this or else. The arrogance of SWA management and their pilots is once again on full display.
Why would ALPA throw them under the bus? Give me the motive. No one even considers that SWAPA would join ALPA so you can't even come up with that weak excuse.
Airtran had a TA with Airtran management about 5 or 6 years ago and the pilots voted it down. It will always get better if you vote no, right? Guess what, sometimes you dig your own grave.
ALFA;
Airtran was ALPA when this merger was announced, not independant.
I do not expect ALPA to be the fairy godmother, but I do expect alpa to be more than the castrated gimp.
I do not see the point of ALPA anymore. No goals, no teeth, legal deck is stacked against it, I dont get the point of ALPA.
08-01-2011, 04:59 AM
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Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
The answer to that doesn't lend itself to sound bites, but I'll try.
1) On issues that affect all pilots, ALPA has the ability to influence legislation so as to cause the greatest benefit (or in some cases the least harm) to the piloting profession.
1) On issues that affect all pilots, ALPA has the ability to influence legislation so as to cause the greatest benefit (or in some cases the least harm) to the piloting profession.
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
2) On issues that only affect a single pilot group, ALPA has a team of professionals, second to none in my opinion, to recommend the best course of action.
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
3) Unlike certain law firms that tell their pilots what they want to hear, ALPA will tell the pilot group the unbiased straight answer, then the pilots decide. But IF the pilots decide opposite the recommendation, they (ALPA National) will then support that decision and defend it to the best of their abilities.
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
Actually, the last couple of lawsuit losses say otherwise...
08-01-2011, 05:01 AM
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Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy
DO YOU EVER READ ANYTHING?
I said they are NOT equals, imo.
I ALSO said the current proposed SLI is far from my version of a fair integration, imo.
Please don't try to equate the two.
I said they are NOT equals, imo.
I ALSO said the current proposed SLI is far from my version of a fair integration, imo.
Please don't try to equate the two.
08-01-2011, 05:04 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by scambo1
ALFA;
Airtran was ALPA when this merger was announced, not independant.
I do not expect ALPA to be the fairy godmother, but I do expect alpa to be more than the castrated gimp.
I do not see the point of ALPA anymore. No goals, no teeth, legal deck is stacked against it, I dont get the point of ALPA.
Airtran was ALPA when this merger was announced, not independant.
I do not expect ALPA to be the fairy godmother, but I do expect alpa to be more than the castrated gimp.
I do not see the point of ALPA anymore. No goals, no teeth, legal deck is stacked against it, I dont get the point of ALPA.
08-01-2011, 05:08 AM
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 11,990
Originally Posted by scambo1
I do not see the point of ALPA anymore. No goals, no teeth, legal deck is stacked against it, I dont get the point of ALPA.
If ALPA would find its way back to its foundational beliefs, it could once again become great. ALPA's own poor legal strategy has harmed it much more than having the "deck stacked against it." You see, a union has an uphill battle when it demands the Courts or Management recognize job protection provisions that the union itself undermines.
Independent unions, by virtue of their independence, will never have the unity to get the big things done.
If given the choice between hope and impossible. I'll pick hope.
08-01-2011, 05:37 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Delta M88 A ATL
Posts: 383
Originally Posted by tsquare
This is a very interesting post. Everything in red highlights what ALPA national does or does not do.. what they can or cannot do. Basically, you then indemnify the national group with the 2 items highlighted in blue "The ATI pilots are the ones that have to decide" So what you say is confusing here. ALPA does nothing other than to recommend. The individual pilots have to make the decision. So tell me again what real purpose the national association has? It is not a flamebait question, but rather a serious one. And then there is the last thing I highlighted in green. You say that ALPA has a responsibility... what are the ramifications of that "responsibility" if they fail to deliver? I'll answer it for you.. nothing because they are simply recommendations based on their judgements.. and they have no real fallout if they bugger it up. Nice gig if you can get it, and get paid to boot.
If it came down to AT pilots not accepting their TA, and decide to go to "self help", would ALPA spend MCF to defend a pilot group who will eventually go to SWAPA ?
ALPA didn't do that for TWA pilots i don't think they would do that for AT pilots either.
08-01-2011, 05:47 AM
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Originally Posted by nerd2009
If it came down to AT pilots not accepting their TA, and decide to go to "self help", would ALPA spend MCF to defend a pilot group who will eventually go to SWAPA ?
ALPA didn't do that for TWA pilots i don't think they would do that for AT pilots either.
ALPA didn't do that for TWA pilots i don't think they would do that for AT pilots either.
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