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-   -   Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta? (https://www.airlinepilotforums.com/delta/36912-any-latest-greatest-about-delta.html)

Bucking Bar 11-06-2011 04:38 PM


Originally Posted by Jack Bauer (Post 1080888)
Here is your earlier argument...

... and here is yours:

Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lhmjn...eature=related

ALPA represents DPA members too. I'd like to see the DPA supporters get involved and get what they want fixed, fixed. That could benefit us. Instead we got an impotent jeering section which wastes energy which could be used to improve our lot around here.

Bucking Bar 11-06-2011 04:42 PM


Originally Posted by Superdad (Post 1080944)
Unless ALPA wants to revisit the seniority list, waste negotiating capital on getting rid of the hat, and some how get us leather jackets to wear, these folks aren't interested in anything ALPA has to say.

Due to our scope, we have too few pilots who would look good in the G-1 jacket. If we are going to wear anything with elastic at the waist, we are going to have to start hiring.

alfaromeo 11-06-2011 05:03 PM


Originally Posted by Carl Spackler (Post 1080840)
Fine alfa. For the sake of argument, let's accept you and the USAPA guys saying: "seems as though" and "looks like" is evidence. Fine. I asked you a question about the ALPA lawyers. Care to answer it, or is it off to the witness protection program for you again?

Carl

This just in from the USAPA President:


Fellow Pilots:

Rumors and tall tales abound on the topic of Lee Seham's relationship with USAPA. Much has been written but, as usual, please take note of the authors of these grandiose yarns and you may find some insight into the motives behind these stories. But here's what has actually happened. To start with, it is worth noting that the current Officers inherited the relationship with Mr. Seham - Seham was chosen precertification.

During the summer of 2010, we recognized that Lee Seham represented a single point of failure for our union. His firm is composed of himself as the sole attorney capable of litigating and a group of journeymen in support. If something, anything, happened to Seham then USAPA would be in trouble because there is no heir apparent inside his firm. And so we sought out to find another competent RLA firm, not to replace Seham, but one with which we could create and test a business relationship in order to eliminate the single point of failure. Competent, powerful labor firms are difficult to come by but after searching for months, we had narrowed that field to Brian O'Dwyer's firm when the Pension Investigation Committee (PIC) needed counsel to potentially investigate State Street Bank (SSB). The PIC attorney was conflicted with SSB, and O'Dwyer was the perfect fit with his extensive pension litigation experience and deep bench.

And so in the spring of 2011, the Board approved the creation of a business relationship with O'Dwyer and we started assigning work to this firm to test their work product. At that time, I personally called Seham and told him the reasons that O'Dwyer had been hired. I assured him that he was not being replaced. There is, after all and unfortunately, plenty of legal work at USAPA to go around.

Now I frankly would have been more than happy to leave well enough alone at this point and to not have to go into the following detail; there just isn't any value for us in telling every detail of the occasional unpleasant business relationship. But the truth of this issue has now been clouded by those who are experts in smearing anyone in their way - they are the dying emblems of old ALPA. So here we are; time for a little truth tellin'.

For a very long time we had been warned about problems with Seham by many others including the Teamsters (their opinions of Seham are not printable), SWAPA (the Southwest pilots' union, who terminated their relationship with Seham just this year for "incompetence and billing irregularities"), APA (the Allied Pilots Association, who fired Seham for a variety of issues including pro-management business relationships), to numerous respected individual labor and RLA attorneys who are aware of Seham's poor reputation among labor advocates. These concerns were relayed to us over time and we took each of them into consideration along the way by doing our best to investigate them and assigning some level of veracity to each of the claims. Each of these concerns with Seham were addressed openly and proactively with him in an attempt to correct problem areas and to stay on track. The efforts to resolve them internally were not successful.

One of the repeated concerns from others is that Seham has a record of becoming vindictive when his business relationships end. Through the late spring, despite my assurances to him to the contrary, Seham became convinced that he was being replaced. This was not ever the plan. The plan was only to eliminate the single point of failure for our organization. At this point, Mr. Seham started engaging in the political process inappropriately. There is never a time when counsel should be politically engaged within the union, but this in fact happened on two occasions where Seham participated in secret telephone calls with certain Board members, plotting for the overthrow of Officers who he believed stood in the path of his USAPA revenue stream. (These calls are acknowledged by those who participated.) This behavior is not only outrageous; it breaches his fiduciary obligation to USAPA as counsel.

The politics continued when Seham began informing line pilots that he wasn't consulted about USAPA's status quo filing in the Eastern District of New York (EDNY) and that the filing would fail and be harmful to our other litigations. This was most remarkable because Mr. Seham was in full favor and support of the EDNY filing - right up until the time that he wasn't the one filing the case. The EDNY case was filed because we believe the Company has been violating the law by frustrating the grievance, arbitration and negotiating process to their economic advantage. When the Company violates the law, I believe that the pilots want us to fight back with the tools available regardless of how much of an uphill battle it is to show up in court in America as a labor union. And that is what we did - we made a tough decision to defend the pilots' rights with the EDNY filing.

Finally, concerns over Mr. Seham's billing practices were coming to light. Although, by his own admission, we had substantially reduced our use of his firm during the late spring and summer, Seham's bills were actually increasing. At this point we became aware of the overbilling problems the Southwest pilots had encountered with Seham. Scrutiny of the bills produced more questions than answers and we sought professional advice to protect the organization. Many firms specializing in auditing legal bills were contacted and interviewed. Preliminary reviews by auditors told us that the Seham bills were "un-auditable", "some of the most uninformative invoices ever seen", and "a significant deviation from the standard bills law firms submit". This preliminary indication that there may have been irregularities in Seham's billing practices with USAPA is a situation that the Board has a responsibility to look into. And so, faced with these allegations, I recommended that the Board authorize an audit of all of our legal bills, which is under way. Unfortunately, after eight weeks of asking the Seham firm for the information necessary to audit the bills, not a single shred of the requested information has been forthcoming. Zero.

Interestingly, instead of cooperating with USAPA and simply providing the requested documentation, Seham has retained counsel which specializes in defending attorneys against ethics charges and disbarment proceedings. I for one find it interesting that he feels the need for this when he has simply been asked to provide substantiation for his billing to us. USAPA has an absolute right to the information we are requesting. The audit will proceed, with or without Mr. Seham's cooperation. Each of our other law firms has indicated they will cooperate fully.

We have found that Mr. Seham has presided over his own demise at many labor unions, and he certainly isn't helping himself here at USAPA. I would be happier if this all were not so, but our obligations to maintain competent, ethical and effective counsel will not be hindered.

I am happy to report that attorneys Brian O'Dwyer and Pat Szymanski are offering us many opportunities that were not previously available. Most recently, the Board approved the reassignment of the Phoenix Declaratory Judgment case to Szymanski and O'Dwyer. Aside from the fact that we cannot be represented by a firm that presents basic trust issues, O'Dwyer is a seasoned labor attorney with political clout that was simply unavailable before. Szymanski is a very experienced RLA attorney who served as general counsel to the Teamsters and Mr. Hoffa for seven years. Their approach is decidedly different from the high confrontation that marked Seham's interaction with everyone, from the judges to his attorney counterparts on the other side. Being advocates for your position doesn't require foment and hostility with those on the other side. A fresh approach to our legal strategy will produce healthier results.

I know that there are additional questions that have been raised. If you want more information, one accurate place to get more information is the recent CLT update that you can read by clicking here. In addition, we have assembled a short series of Q&As on this topic that you can read by clicking here.

None of these decisions were made lightly. All were made after due deliberation and after a full review of the facts. This organization will be managed methodically and dispassionately with only your best interests in mind. I am extremely confident that we are in a position to move forward with more competent legal counsel than we had before. We are well aware that all of this may not be very interesting to many pilots and we will be communicating to you on the critical topics of the status of our contract and seniority dispute in the next few days.

Sincerely,



Captain Michael Cleary
President
Sounds to me like he got fired. At least he has a new client in the DPA, I hope those contributions are well spent.

Jack Bauer 11-06-2011 05:51 PM


Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1080984)
... and here is yours:

Fallacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Meh - YouTube

ALPA represents DPA members too. I'd like to see the DPA supporters get involved and get what they want fixed, fixed. That could benefit us. Instead we got an impotent jeering section which wastes energy which could be used to improve our lot around here.

Doesn't change the fact you were using logical fallacies. Just own up to it. RE getting guys involved, ALPA has chewed up and spit out change. They have created bylaws/structure that strongly resists a cleanout/revamping. Guys are fed up with the structure at (D)ALPA that prevents this change and lack of transparency. The mighty fortress and privileged at the top that cannot be toppled. The anger and giving up on ALPA is ALPA's fault not the general members. The "lets recall reps and turn this ship around" mantra now falls on deaf ears. That approach and ship have sailed. Get used to it.

Jesse 11-06-2011 06:07 PM

Is anyone surprised by the attacks on DPA? Looks to me like the ALPA supporters have taken to the tactic of attacking anyone and anything that dares point out the problems ALPA has. Working to provide an option for an alternative? Hearsay! You should only try to change ALPA by emailing your reps, and volunteering; anything else is complete lunacy, and devoid of earnest desire for bettering pilots' lives!

Honestly, I'm on the fence when it comes to which organization is better for representing my interests, but reading the smear campaign here against DPA leads me to believe the lady doth protest too much. Instead, why not a more intelligent defense to justify ALPA's ways, or an admission that many things do need to change without the standard rebuttal that you need to volunteer to change it from within, or write your reps, or attend a meeting or else your concerns aren't worth listening to? Sounds like all that has been tried, and yet we hear the same tired excuses. Members are apparently fed up with the same ol' lines that have worked in the past; they're tired of being taken for granted; tired of ALPA thinking they're too stupid or lazy to do anything about it; tired of the status quo.

forgot to bid 11-06-2011 06:24 PM

Still curious about:


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1080094)
Out of curiosity since questions are often asked of the DPA folks about what would they do different, what would you have done different than LM/TO to put down DPA a long time ago or prevent it from having 3,856 cards today as we approach section 6?


1234 11-06-2011 06:27 PM


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
What must the next contract be for non-DPA supporters to say it was successful?

I would say that a contract that is passed by memrat by the majority of pilots would have to be deemed successful. It will not be successful to all the pilots but to the majority, if it passed, then yep, must have been ok.


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
Does DALPAs opener limit the DPAs ability to negotiate?

I don't see how it does.

[QUOTE=scambo1;1080949]Yours is a fair question, but in many ways it is different for different people.

For me, I see no intent or prospect of DALPA/ALPA to reel in scope, they have fought it at every opportunity...including no memrat for major contract changes. I dont find that acceptable.


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
Is a 9-15% increase in compensation with 3-5% per year acceptable? For how long? I dont find that acceptable.

Not acceptable to me and I hope not the majority either. Again, we get to vote.


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
Based upon no major medical problems, just normal health, does your health insurance cost you more than having no insurance? Contrast our insurance with SWA insurance.

Insurance is personal issue. I would love to go back to not having to pay for insurance, however, that is very rare in these days. When I was furloughed and working a very good job, I had to pay more than double what it cost me know for family coverage and that is with no medical issues, just monthly premium costs. Again, I want better than what we have now.


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
Is recieving a letter for commuting difficulties for barriers you cant control good? Is being bothered while you are sick good?

Nope, bad deal if getting a letter for unable to commute however, that is a Delta issue, not an ALPA issue. At NWA, there was company and ALPA and I don't believe that anyone received a letter if they were unable to commute. The company just followed the policy they instituted and got the pilot to the trip. That and the current commuting policy is just that, a policy, that the company has instituted. It is not in the PWA and therefore, how can you blame the union for that. If anything, ALPA was successful in getting our company to actually come up with a policy.

As for the call from CPO office when sick, ALPA has no control over that. They are following the contract. Did you know that the CPO office actually has found out that pilots are very sick, in the hospital, etc through making that call and can then offer their assistance to those pilots and family's. Are you saying that is bad?


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
Do we have a union or a collective bargaining agent that actually looks out for us, that actually tries to educate us with truth and facts? Do they spin facts? Do they hide facts (af/klm)? Are we not trustworthy to make informed decisions?

I have not been happy with everything, however, we don't get information and they are accused of hiding info. We get information that we don't like and they are accused of giving bad info. They give us info we don't like to hear and they are accused of spinning the facts. They were over eager to tell us that they would give us the af/klm contract info and later find out that they can not release that info and they are accused of hiding the info. There is no way they can win.

Do you think that the DPA can get us all the facts on the af/klm contracts? How will they be successful in releasing that info?


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
Is ALPAs goal to protect pilots and advance this profession or is it to protect the association and the MECs?

Which came first, the chicken or the egg? If they don't protect the pilots and advance this profession, there will not be an association or MEC's and I truly believe they are smart enough to know this.


Originally Posted by scambo1 (Post 1080949)
Personally, I like the idea of taking the entire SWA contract plus appropriate increases as a final outcome.

Do you have a copy of the SWA contract? I don't and before I would accept that offer, I have to see and read their ENTIRE contract. Remember, coming from NWA, we were told how great the DAL PWA is and how it is superior in many ways to the NWA contract and I am guessing that most pilots that were former NWA would tell you that may not be the case.

What I find ironic about the hardcore DPA support is that they are in a win win situation. No matter what ALPA does or what the contract looks like, they will claim it sucks and DPA "could" have gotten better. If we vote ALPA off the property and vote in DPA, all the information provided will be good, valid data. All the roadshows that DPA puts on will not be a "sales job or setting low expectations" but instead "actual, factual information provided to the pilots in order to make a decision". No matter what kind of contract the DPA could negotiate would be "the absolute best we could negotiate". Believe me, some of both ALPA and DPA supporters have blinders on and think that their side can do no wrong. I just find it so ironic that while it is so wrong what one side does, the same thing can be so right if coming from another group.

What is DPA's plan to regain all flying, increase our payrates to SWA+ W2's, much improved work rules, retirement and no medical costs and how are they going to guarantee that all happens on Jan 1, 2013?

Back to mostly lurking............

Flamer 11-06-2011 06:34 PM


Originally Posted by Pineapple Guy (Post 1080977)
People who say that don't know the SWA contract.

This leads me to believe you do not understand the SWA contract.

Jesse 11-06-2011 06:42 PM


Originally Posted by 1234 (Post 1081043)
Did you know that the CPO office actually has found out that pilots are very sick, in the hospital, etc through making that call and can then offer their assistance to those pilots and family's. Are you saying that is bad?

They have a better system for discovering this: schedulers not shutting down a pilot when he attempts to volunteer the seriousness of his ailment. I have a friend who called in sick due to severe internal cramping and discomfort. He attempted to provide a short explanation as to the seriousness of the situation (i.e. was in the hospital for two days), but was cut short with a curt, "OK, call when you're no longer sick."

acl65pilot 11-06-2011 06:47 PM


Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1081040)
Still curious about:

Transparency of the process. Input at every possible direction.


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