Originally Posted by gloopy

I agree. The whole point of contention with SLC center is despite what the AIM or PCG says about it, the fact remains that there are massive inconsistencies at the ATC level regarding this. Even if we "don't have to ask them" when we do ask them we get different answers all of the time.

"Resume normal speed" is another grossly misunderstood one especially from a controller perspective. Many, many controllers use "resume normal speed" synonymously with "delete speed restrictions" and to add even more confustion, often they use it to answer a pilot's question regarding relief for a charted speed restriction when the controller's intent is to delete it.

From our perspective it doesn't really matter who is technically right or if we don't really "need" to clarify to somehow prove our awesome knowledge. The fact is there is a LOT of confusion at the ATC level over both "climb and maintain" and "resume normal speed" and even if you technically do the right thing, if you and the controller are not on the same page because either one of you doesn't fully understand what the other is doing, regardless of who is right, it could be a bad situation for all involved.

So why would anyone be hesitant to call? To prove to themselves that they know so much about the AIM? What are we paying by the transmission now? The right answer is: its a free call, get clarification. That goes for if you have any doubt as to what you should do as well as if you have any doubt as to what you think the controller thinks you should do even if you know you are right.

About 1 or 2 times out of 10, if you ask (even though you "don't have to") the controller will contradict your expectations. IMO until that stops completely, at least for a couple of years, I'm getting clarification and that's all there is to it.

The 1 or 2 times out of 10 times it gets everyone on the same page, I'll bust out a Nelson - YouTube on guard for all those wrapped around the axel thinking the AIM is the Alpha and Omega of all things. It may be the textbook Alpha, but that does no good when a (semi-common) misunderstanding causes a real world bad Omega.

Originally Posted by Dash8widget

So much of our interaction with the ATC system revolves around per-defined phrases; cleared to land, line up and wait, reduce speed to, resume normal speed, climb and maintain, etc. All of these have specific meanings. So when a controller issues a clearance using the standard phraseology their intentions should be clear. Now, as pilots, we need to have an internal logic filter - ie. does this clearance make sense? In the case of SLC - if I'm climbing out on a SID that has a restriction to cross a fix at FL230, and prior to reaching that fix the controller clears me to "climb and maintain FL300," I know, by definition, he wants me to climb and maintain FL300. And, by definition, the restriction to cross the fix at FL230 no longer applies. And to me, this clearance passes the makes sense test.

True, the AIM is not "regulatory" but it does define much of what we do in our world. Without it, and other documents like the pilot controller glossary, we would have no common ground with which to communicate with ATC. While controllers are by no means perfect - IMHO their understanding of standard phraseology tends to be better than that of the general pilot population.

I'm not saying there isnt sometimes confusion on both side. But when you say to the controller, "hey, can we delete the speed restrictions?" and he responds "resume normal speed," he hasn't really answered your question, has he.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

I always get confused at SLC. I know the rules. They clear you via a SID, the PDC usually says "maintain 230kts." You look at the chart and it says to cross the first fix at 230kts. It then tells you to cross another fix at 250kts. This is confusing to me. Am I suppose to just maintain 230kts until advised or fly the SID as published? These are not expect clearances on the SID. In reality, as soon as you take off, you get a "climb and maintain FL_00, delete speed restrictions." SLC is confusing. It should not be. It's just asking for someone to get violated from being confused.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

Does anyone else think it's funny when you get unstacked on for your reserve schedule, then trade the days off as soon as the PCS runs start? I never understood what the point of unstacking is if you can just trade it away anyway.

Originally Posted by hockeypilot44

I always get confused at SLC. I know the rules. They clear you via a SID, the PDC usually says "maintain 230kts." You look at the chart and it says to cross the first fix at 230kts. It then tells you to cross another fix at 250kts. This is confusing to me. Am I suppose to just maintain 230kts until advised or fly the SID as published? These are not expect clearances on the SID. In reality, as soon as you take off, you get a "climb and maintain FL_00, delete speed restrictions." SLC is confusing. It should not be. It's just asking for someone to get violated from being confused.

Originally Posted by NuGuy

I read the "230 kts" note in the SLC PDC as an amendment to the SID. 230 goes in the climb page or MCP, and if they want something else, then they say "resume normal speed" or "delete speed restrictions" or whatever.

It's no different than if the tower or departure controller told you the same thing.

Nu

Originally Posted by forgot to bid

Man, that place looks really familiar... hmmmm... where have I seen that place before?