Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-24-2012 | 03:44 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Alpha (and those watching this debate),
Is Bill Swelbar also, as you state, "truly rotten to the core is how his self pity has taken him to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads him to post this drivel. Sometimes he has a decent insight into the industry and sometimes he is so helplessly self indulgent that he spews out any crap that enters his head." Because, he writes the exact same historical recap of ALPA negotiations on his blog:
Mainline Pilot Scope: Will Regional Carriers Be Permitted to Fly 90+ Seat*Aircraft? - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines
Like I said, lets post objective data, external sources, and verifiable results ... then let readers decide.
Is Bill Swelbar also, as you state, "truly rotten to the core is how his self pity has taken him to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads him to post this drivel. Sometimes he has a decent insight into the industry and sometimes he is so helplessly self indulgent that he spews out any crap that enters his head." Because, he writes the exact same historical recap of ALPA negotiations on his blog:
Mainline Pilot Scope: Will Regional Carriers Be Permitted to Fly 90+ Seat*Aircraft? - Aviation Articles and Commentary - Swelblog / Swelbar on Airlines
Like I said, lets post objective data, external sources, and verifiable results ... then let readers decide.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-24-2012 at 03:56 PM.
02-24-2012 | 03:53 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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I don't know if it is worth responding, because even when you are corrected on your facts, you continue to repeat falsehoods. It seems like you might be a more effective advocate if you would simply stick to the facts.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
1. We have a pay rate already established for EMB-190/195, so why are you babbling on about diluting MD-88 pay rates? Delta doesn't buy the EMB-190 because the plane sucks.
2. Do you seriously consider even for a minute that ALPA has any input at all into the fleet purchases that Delta makes? This is and of itself is the most ludicrous accusation you have ever made.
3. Comair and ASA pilots were not merged with Delta because the companies were not merged. You know this fact, you know this is the reason there was no seniority integration and yet you continue to repeat the same lies over and over. Why? Please hammer this fact into your brain once and for all: Delta and Comair or ASA were never merged therefore there was no seniority integration.
4. Compass pilots work for a different airline and yet you want Delta pilots to negotiate their contract. If this doesn't sound insane to you then it should. Maybe the United MEC should negotiate our next contract or maybe Spirit.
5. You claim we have some partnership to permit outsourcing. The issue of more outsourcing was the last item negotiated at the last minute of the last day. This was the most difficult issue of the entire bankruptcy negotiation. Your characterization is insulting and false.
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
02-24-2012 | 03:57 PM
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
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From: 777B
I don't know, I can't read too much into the Alfa / Bar discussion.
What I read:
Alfa: "Bar, Get back in line!"
Bar: "No."
What I read:
Alfa: "Bar, Get back in line!"
Bar: "No."
02-24-2012 | 04:04 PM
Banned
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There you have it everyone. This, ^^^^ coming from a senior representative of DALPA that has sunk to the lowest levels of disgraceful behavior toward a fellow aviator. An absolutely abhorrent display Alpha.
This just furthers my conviction that D-ALPA will eventually self-immolate. And you call yourselves leaders?
This just furthers my conviction that D-ALPA will eventually self-immolate. And you call yourselves leaders?
02-24-2012 | 04:08 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Here you go, again:
Q There's still a disagreement between the two sides with regard to whether ALPA should be receiving any type of credit for agreeing to that -- for deletion of the minimum block hours; correct?
ALPA - Correct, there is value associated with that, and the company does not see that we should be credited with any value for agreeing to that.
Q And why does ALPA take the position that it should be credited with a value for agreeing to delete the minimum block hours?
ALPA - Well, the minimum block hours is basically the number of mainline block hours that Delta pilots are flying. And if there's a change to those minimum block hours, then the easy way to look at it is that those block hours will be flown somewhere else, and therefore, there's a value associated with the jobs of pilots that are flying those block hours.
Q Okay. And... why is it that ALPA believes that a credit should be provided to the pilots for agreeing to remove the plan percentage from the scope provision?
ALPA - The plan percentage is basically a balance between the flying the mainline pilots of Delta are doing relative to flying that's done at connection carriers and our other affiliate. And if we then remove this balance mechanism, it would allow more flying at a connection carrier versus less flying at the mainline. And once again, we had Delta pilot jobs that would be outsourced.
Q Now, let's go to item 3 on the term sheet under section 1. That's the minimum international flying designated flying levels?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA has agreed to remove that, but there's still a disagreement with regard to costing issues for that; correct?
ALPA That's correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA believes that a credit should be provided? ....
Q And when the company told you about this, it told you that it was a net number, that if -- for example, if $100 million worth of work were outsourced, work that had cost $100 million in-house, but it cost $50 million to be done outside, it was only giving the credit for the net, the $50 million improvement to the company?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Isn't that the way it was described to you?
ALPA - That the numbers are 300 million outsourced and a net of 150.
Q And when that work goes out from the company, real human beings lose their jobs; correct?
ALPA - Correct.
Q All right. Delta employees?
ALPA - As pilots would lose their jobs.
Q Well, how many pilots lost their jobs when the number of 70-seaters was increased flying at the Delta connection carrier in 2004?
ALPA There's 500 pilots furloughed.
ALPA - Correct, there is value associated with that, and the company does not see that we should be credited with any value for agreeing to that.
Q And why does ALPA take the position that it should be credited with a value for agreeing to delete the minimum block hours?
ALPA - Well, the minimum block hours is basically the number of mainline block hours that Delta pilots are flying. And if there's a change to those minimum block hours, then the easy way to look at it is that those block hours will be flown somewhere else, and therefore, there's a value associated with the jobs of pilots that are flying those block hours.
Q Okay. And... why is it that ALPA believes that a credit should be provided to the pilots for agreeing to remove the plan percentage from the scope provision?
ALPA - The plan percentage is basically a balance between the flying the mainline pilots of Delta are doing relative to flying that's done at connection carriers and our other affiliate. And if we then remove this balance mechanism, it would allow more flying at a connection carrier versus less flying at the mainline. And once again, we had Delta pilot jobs that would be outsourced.
Q Now, let's go to item 3 on the term sheet under section 1. That's the minimum international flying designated flying levels?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA has agreed to remove that, but there's still a disagreement with regard to costing issues for that; correct?
ALPA That's correct.
Q Okay. And ALPA believes that a credit should be provided? ....
Q And when the company told you about this, it told you that it was a net number, that if -- for example, if $100 million worth of work were outsourced, work that had cost $100 million in-house, but it cost $50 million to be done outside, it was only giving the credit for the net, the $50 million improvement to the company?
ALPA - Correct.
Q Isn't that the way it was described to you?
ALPA - That the numbers are 300 million outsourced and a net of 150.
Q And when that work goes out from the company, real human beings lose their jobs; correct?
ALPA - Correct.
Q All right. Delta employees?
ALPA - As pilots would lose their jobs.
Q Well, how many pilots lost their jobs when the number of 70-seaters was increased flying at the Delta connection carrier in 2004?
ALPA There's 500 pilots furloughed.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-24-2012 at 04:18 PM.
02-24-2012 | 04:15 PM
Can't abide NAI
Joined: Jun 2007
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From: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
I thought this was an anonymous forum? Has Alpha ever claimed to be a senior representative of DALPA? Whoever Alpha is, he ought to have a right to express his opinion here without being outed as anything other than an anonymous poster, no? Once we go down the road of outing folks then this forum has lost it's value.
Then I feel sorry for him and pull my posts down.
Got no idea who Alpha or Sailing are, but they are generally well informed and add a lot to this site. I will state in general that if our MEC is ordering us around, they have their representational obligation backwards.
02-24-2012 | 04:31 PM
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1. Agreed, although Delta has been a fan of the E175 at Compass pay rates.
2. Yes, the fact Delta management has bought airplanes to maximize allowances under scope documents this assertion. The fact Air France management in a coordinated effort with Delta management has reallocated their heavy metal across the Delta network shows the effect of the temporary relaxation in our JV enforcement protocol.
3. How many Delta managers voted at the 2000 ALPA Board of Director's meeting? Best I can recall, the number was, zero. D-ALPA did not want a merger in any event and stated their opinion via their vote.
4. Your being silly. Spirit is no comparison. Compass operates exclusively Delta flying, was owned by Delta and the NWA MEC had little difficulty with the Compass contract. Ideally, if you approached this correctly, you would desire Compass pilots be Delta pilots and thus covered by the Delta PWA.
5. Chairman McClain explained the process well in NWA's ziplines. The NWA MEC was proud of the fact bargaining credits were received in exchange for scope relaxation. Their publications are sufficient to show how the "partnership" worked. The resulting scope language was pasted into our current PWA. In addition, I am sure you are aware that folks outside the Delta MEC have our negotiators' notes. Let me know if you would like to broaden our public debate with more documentation (I've not seen them and base my opinion as to what was in those documents on the basis of the testimony published during depositions which were briefly online).
At the end of the day, if you prefer to externalize our scope failures, fine. I'm not trying to embarrass any of the truly good folks who represent us. It is water over the dam. My only goal is to focus on better policy going forward and get ALPA to fight outsourcing like the poison it is.
As for your personal insult, I'm quite comfortable calling it what it is. It takes a bit of integrity and confidence to post something here and then show up at every LEC meeting, make resolutions and participate in the process knowing some in the room would as soon rip my head off as look my way. I grew up in a better Delta and a better ALPA and expect we will all achieve that high standard. So call me what you will. You should be know readers will judge what they read here based on the objective data they can correlate and results.
2. Yes, the fact Delta management has bought airplanes to maximize allowances under scope documents this assertion. The fact Air France management in a coordinated effort with Delta management has reallocated their heavy metal across the Delta network shows the effect of the temporary relaxation in our JV enforcement protocol.
3. How many Delta managers voted at the 2000 ALPA Board of Director's meeting? Best I can recall, the number was, zero. D-ALPA did not want a merger in any event and stated their opinion via their vote.
4. Your being silly. Spirit is no comparison. Compass operates exclusively Delta flying, was owned by Delta and the NWA MEC had little difficulty with the Compass contract. Ideally, if you approached this correctly, you would desire Compass pilots be Delta pilots and thus covered by the Delta PWA.
5. Chairman McClain explained the process well in NWA's ziplines. The NWA MEC was proud of the fact bargaining credits were received in exchange for scope relaxation. Their publications are sufficient to show how the "partnership" worked. The resulting scope language was pasted into our current PWA. In addition, I am sure you are aware that folks outside the Delta MEC have our negotiators' notes. Let me know if you would like to broaden our public debate with more documentation (I've not seen them and base my opinion as to what was in those documents on the basis of the testimony published during depositions which were briefly online).
At the end of the day, if you prefer to externalize our scope failures, fine. I'm not trying to embarrass any of the truly good folks who represent us. It is water over the dam. My only goal is to focus on better policy going forward and get ALPA to fight outsourcing like the poison it is.
As for your personal insult, I'm quite comfortable calling it what it is. It takes a bit of integrity and confidence to post something here and then show up at every LEC meeting, make resolutions and participate in the process knowing some in the room would as soon rip my head off as look my way. I grew up in a better Delta and a better ALPA and expect we will all achieve that high standard. So call me what you will. You should be know readers will judge what they read here based on the objective data they can correlate and results.
2. None of that makes any sense in the context of ALPA having control over Delta's fleet decisions.
3. When was the vote that Delta ALPA took to oppose a merger with Comair or ASA? I don't remember ever seeing that. You do know that merging companies is entirely management's choice and ALPA has no say over whether they merge or whom they merge with. Look in the contract, it says so right there. You set up this vast conspiracy in ALPA when in fact Delta management had no intention of ever merging those companies.
4. Of course we desire Compass pilots to be part of Delta and be Delta pilots. That was not the way that organization was set up and Delta management had no intention of merging the two companies. That simply leaves the question of who should represent the Compass pilots. That answer was clearly the Compass pilots and not some other pilot group. Delta ALPA had no more right to represent them than did United or Spirit. So you state that ALPA "divested" Compass. They did nothing of the sort. They did the right thing and had Compass pilots represent themselves through their own MEC, just like the ALPA Constitution calls for.
5. You well know I had nothing to do with whatever Capt. McClain said in his ziplines. I know what happened at Delta. It was a very difficult fight. ALPA made a lengthy presentation about how we could affordably fly 76 seat aircraft at Delta. In the end, the leverage in bankruptcy was tilted heavily in management's favor. If you don't believe me, then ask the 6 out of 6 labor groups that all had their contracts rejected in bankruptcy. Now you make some veiled reference to having negotiator notes. If someone stole someone's personal notes, then they should have the guts to stand up and say what they are. For now, you get to make vague accusations about some misdeeds without having to show any evidence at all.
Don't be disingenuous. You were not trying to "make policy better". You were throwing bombs at people. Quit pretending like you weren't.
I am sure you somehow think that calling people liars, telling them they made up stories, making accusations that you know aren't true is not making personal attacks but you know you are.
I know on these forums, that you all make the rule that only certain people get to make sharp comments. This protected group gets to say anything make any attack, make any accusation, no matter how heinous or libelous. Yet this protected group is immune from taking incoming themselves. If you are going to call people liars then you should expect return fire. I do not subscribe to the unilateral rules that you specify here.
02-24-2012 | 04:31 PM
Gets Weekends Off
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02-24-2012 | 04:33 PM
Back on TDY
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From: 747-400 Captain
I am tired of being lied to about this issue. Management gets a pass since they don't have an obligation to their employees. ALPA doesn't get a pass. ALPA works for us, using our dues, and has a fiduciary duty to us.
Worst of all this scheme has rotted ALPA's core. ALPA can't be unified as long as half of its flying is done by someone outside the control of our Bargaining Agent ... so we water down unity to a form of mindless allegiance and cede our reason for existence; we cede our structural difference with the DPA. The DPA should not be on the property. The DPA should not win. The DPA will not be good for Delta pilots, but if we are going to model Contract 2012 on the last decade's outsourcing scheme, then you've handed them the keys to the place.
Worst of all this scheme has rotted ALPA's core. ALPA can't be unified as long as half of its flying is done by someone outside the control of our Bargaining Agent ... so we water down unity to a form of mindless allegiance and cede our reason for existence; we cede our structural difference with the DPA. The DPA should not be on the property. The DPA should not win. The DPA will not be good for Delta pilots, but if we are going to model Contract 2012 on the last decade's outsourcing scheme, then you've handed them the keys to the place.
Carl
02-24-2012 | 04:34 PM
Banned
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From: DAL
What is truly rotten to the core is how your self pity has taken you to abandon any source of decency or integrity and leads you to post this drivel. Sometimes you have a decent insight into the industry and sometimes you are so helplessly self indulgent that you spew out any crap that enters your head.
I detect full-on desperation. My guess is, DALPA knows it doesn't have the stones or horsepower to secure anything close to a "yes" TA, and that they will be booted within the year. They just reached a new low with the above quote.
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