Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
02-29-2012, 08:19 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by dtwairbus320
Hi everyone,
First post so please be kind.
Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else?
Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind?
That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it.
I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way.
Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right.
First post so please be kind.
Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else?
Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind?
That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it.
I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way.
Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right.
Welcome to the longest running thread here on APC. Post here post often
I was talking to a few of my FA"s a month or so ago, and they were commenting that they will be back to their Pre CH11 wages with the pay bump this year. (If they are not they are very very close)
I agree, our pay is still about 42% down on a dollar per dollar basis wrt to hourly wage, That does not include inflation. If that were factored in we are over 70% down.
There are items we will never be able to get back: Efficiencies in PBS, and the pensions come to mind. We can get better work rules, vacation, sick time, retirement contributions, a robust profit sharing plan, etc. It takes a unified group to force the issue.
What I do see is a group that is starting to come together quite nicely just prior to the opener. We all want the same thing, and are starting to face the deck chairs towards the front of the room; no longer yelling at each other, but stating what we want the company to agree too. That is significant, and needs to continue.
02-29-2012, 08:19 AM
Runs with scissors
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Going to hell in a bucket, but enjoying the ride .
Posts: 7,723
Originally Posted by acl65pilot
Exactly.
They want want us under an agreement to further their reach and profitability, they will need to decide if they are willing to pay the price for their goals.
If we get to vote on (and it passes) anything remotely to what Sailing suggests, it makes many pilots' decisions easy on where to go wrt to their career.
Many have said the senior guys have run the number and know exactly what this or that will result in the results not effecting them, but another reality is true. The junior pilots are running their numbers as well. If DAL does not want to pay to keep talent and quality in the flight decks,there is a surprising number of pilots looking overseas. I suspect we will see some jump to FDX and UPS, but many will just go work overseas for a period of 10-15 years and then return to the states to finish their careers out on a commuting contract or start a business. It does make a lot of sense.
As T say, it is not ideal, but for many pilots looking at less than 25 years in the game, and at least 10 years to the half way mark in this seniority list. You have to look at the risk-reward of some other opportunity to meet life/retirement goals if your current employer is not willing to rationally share in the gains. Its business and nothing personal from what my of the pilots I have talked to who are looking. They want DAL to get it right, but their families come first.
The interesting note in all of this is that pilots are finding portability of their skill set, and to a larger degree than they have before. US airlines need to take note of this, and realize that the rest of the world is seeing the pilot shortage we are waiting for here. There will not be expats to fill the seats here. Pay must go up to get those interest in this career to jump in. It is pure economics.
We need to replace over half of this list in the next 15 years. If DAL wants to maintain their size and quality of their pilot force, the total package needs to come up. What I am seeing across the board is, no one is willing to compromise their contractual goals to get a deal done quickly. If our employer is unwilling to pay us what the rest of the World is paying pilots, many have started to formulate and exit strategy. The days of the lion's share of pilots using this job to pay the bills until the military pension shows up are disappearing. DAL and the rest of the US industry needs to realize that and adjust accordingly.
They want want us under an agreement to further their reach and profitability, they will need to decide if they are willing to pay the price for their goals.
If we get to vote on (and it passes) anything remotely to what Sailing suggests, it makes many pilots' decisions easy on where to go wrt to their career.
Many have said the senior guys have run the number and know exactly what this or that will result in the results not effecting them, but another reality is true. The junior pilots are running their numbers as well. If DAL does not want to pay to keep talent and quality in the flight decks,there is a surprising number of pilots looking overseas. I suspect we will see some jump to FDX and UPS, but many will just go work overseas for a period of 10-15 years and then return to the states to finish their careers out on a commuting contract or start a business. It does make a lot of sense.
As T say, it is not ideal, but for many pilots looking at less than 25 years in the game, and at least 10 years to the half way mark in this seniority list. You have to look at the risk-reward of some other opportunity to meet life/retirement goals if your current employer is not willing to rationally share in the gains. Its business and nothing personal from what my of the pilots I have talked to who are looking. They want DAL to get it right, but their families come first.
The interesting note in all of this is that pilots are finding portability of their skill set, and to a larger degree than they have before. US airlines need to take note of this, and realize that the rest of the world is seeing the pilot shortage we are waiting for here. There will not be expats to fill the seats here. Pay must go up to get those interest in this career to jump in. It is pure economics.
We need to replace over half of this list in the next 15 years. If DAL wants to maintain their size and quality of their pilot force, the total package needs to come up. What I am seeing across the board is, no one is willing to compromise their contractual goals to get a deal done quickly. If our employer is unwilling to pay us what the rest of the World is paying pilots, many have started to formulate and exit strategy. The days of the lion's share of pilots using this job to pay the bills until the military pension shows up are disappearing. DAL and the rest of the US industry needs to realize that and adjust accordingly.
ACL, I agree, and the only good thing to come out of our Bankruptcy was, with the loss of our DB plan, we are no longer handcuffed to Delta for the rest or our careers. If I get a better offer somewhere else, I'm gone.
02-29-2012, 08:20 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by dtwairbus320
Hi everyone,
First post so please be kind.
Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else?
Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind?
That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it.
I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way.
Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right.
First post so please be kind.
Those numbers comparing revenue generated per pilot are interesting but if true are not surprising. We generated record profit over $1 bil. each year for the last two years. That seems a little rich to me. Does that seem a little too rich to anyone else?
Our pay is severely lagging behind other employee groups at Delta. Flight attendants and gate agents are very near to their pre-bankruptcy pay(percentage-wise). Ask them. Other employee groups may be as well. I don't know. Why are we being left behind?
That is our money being used to pay down debt. It's like for the last two years each of us sat down to write a personal check to Delta in the amount of about $80,000($1bil./12,000 pilots). That's how I look at it. It makes me angry to see Delta have such high profits because we subsidized it.
I don't care about AMR corp's bankruptcy. I don't care about how much oil is. These are not my problems. They are not in my control. These are managements problems. AMR will come back again. Oil will go up and down. Don't let them fool us into thinking it is our burden to absorb these events into our paychecks and benefits. I only hope the union thinks the same way.
Of course it's managements job to low-ball us in a negotiation. That's what they are supposed to do. They will never offer us what we want. It is unsettling to see some of my colleagues on here and on line resign themselves to a 4% increase over four years if it were offered. This is unspeakable and outrageous! I'm junior and am willing to fight to the end for what we all deserve and what is right.
I didnt know the other groups were almost back to pre chapter 11 pay? That's something we can work with.
02-29-2012, 08:23 AM
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: A-320 right
Posts: 15
And let me just add that any increase to our current pay should be referred to as a RESTORATION and not a raise. We all need to use the correct vernacular to make our point clear.
02-29-2012, 08:26 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2010
Posts: 1,503
Originally Posted by LandGreen2
Maybe some of the LCA can challenge RA at the next meeting regarding his logic of using industry standard pay for his pilots and industry leading pay for his executive team. His response to the question could be our next bag sticker!
^^^ This!! ^^^ But to do that they would have to remove the cup of Kool-Aid from their mouth, put it down, and raise their hand. That's asking too much maybe
02-29-2012, 08:27 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 1,044
AE this Friday or Next? They said early March...
02-29-2012, 08:28 AM
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Originally Posted by georgetg
You guys are just all so negative!
Let's celebrate the new jet delivered today!
Is this "Winning New York?" ;-)
Brand new A330-300 delivered today, it's practically ours...
Cheers
George
Let's celebrate the new jet delivered today!
Is this "Winning New York?" ;-)
Brand new A330-300 delivered today, it's practically ours...
Cheers
George
02-29-2012, 08:32 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by Timbo
ACL, I agree, and the only good thing to come out of our Bankruptcy was, with the loss of our DB plan, we are no longer handcuffed to Delta for the rest or our careers. If I get a better offer somewhere else, I'm gone.
For a guy like you, it is about a wash. For most junior to you, the decision becomes more cloudy. For anyone in my seniority bracket, many things need to happen for DAL to offer the career advancement that will, 1) attract pilots, and 2) keep pilots for the long haul.
I would not mind the Expat life, and nor would my wife. All of the talk as of late got me doing research on all of the gigs out there, and frankly I was floored at the money, and benefits offered. We enjoy the life we have, but fighting your way to make 100-130K a year for the next ten years, having 12 or so days off, is not the way to do it. Something will have to give wrt to our PWA. (You can get 12 or more days off a month with better pay and benefits a lot of other places)
I got lucky last year with my earnings. Because of the cutbacks, I will take a 50K paycut this year. That is no fun at all. (Never flew a GS and only flew to ALV+15) You could say it beats the street, and it does. I have had many pilots contact me asking how long of leave I thought they could get because they found a gig that can make 50-100% more than they are here. That is the sad commentary of the day.
The industry is upside down. International contracts should not pay so much better that pilots are seriously considering leaving a legacy job for them, but they are.
02-29-2012, 08:33 AM
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Originally Posted by MoonShot
AE this Friday or Next? They said early March...
Hoping they delay it another month or two!
Probably will be the first one in a long time that is posted as planned.
02-29-2012, 08:35 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,324
Originally Posted by dtwairbus320
And let me just add that any increase to our current pay should be referred to as a RESTORATION and not a raise. We all need to use the correct vernacular to make our point clear.
Two things you can count on from the new contract no matter what the outcome...
1) ALPA will declare it a victory.
2) It will be called a raise.
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