Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
04-09-2012 | 10:36 AM
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It would carry the weight of US law. If ruled then the airlines would be merged. There was no real chance of that and ASA and Comair did not even attempt to force that issue. The company would never have purchased either airline if they thought there was a chance of a STS ruling. I am sure they did a lot of legal homework before the purchase and I am sure ASA and Comair did a lot of legal homework after the purchase. None felt there was any real chance of a STS. It had been long established that major airlines can own feeder airlines.
04-09-2012 | 10:42 AM
veut gagner à la loterie
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From: Light Chop
I love it... someone asks about the union actually doing real analysis on the cost benfits of insourcing, then a union guy comes on and says "we're doing it." When taken a bit deeper, that seems to not be the case. The other unionoid comes on and throws some numbers out there which were quickly taken to task. Cue defending and circles and attempts at fancy wording to look smarter with more info by unionoids which is quite transparent.
Why do our union guys try to justify the outsourcing?? This is ridiculous. Then they wonder why there is a push to get rid of this ALPA?
Why do our union guys try to justify the outsourcing?? This is ridiculous. Then they wonder why there is a push to get rid of this ALPA?
Well, that's just not true. The problem with this situation is that if the facts point to a conclusion that doesn't match certain people's preconceived expectations, then you are accused of "managing expectations," or in other words "don't confuse me with the facts." Here is just a sample of the problems you might face in this analysis. Here are some sample pay rates all from the second year, with the exception of our probationary rate that is thrown in for reference only:
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
Industry average 76 seat F/O : $35.40
DL probationary pay..............: $58.59
DL 76 seat F/O.....................: $58.59
Industry average 76 seat CA..: $64.60
DL MD-88 F/O......................: $84.50
DL A-320 F/O.......................: $86.46
DL 737 F/O..........................: $89.68
DL 76 Seat CA.....................: $107.71
The average hourly cost for second year pay at regionals is $100.00 per hour for the whole crew. At DL pay it is $166.30. That is pay only. Factor in 14% DC, work rules, disability, and the rest and you can see where easily our pilot costs are almost double the regionals. That is before we get whatever pay raise is your "Personal Minimum" in the ongoing negotiations. Right now the top of scale rates for 76 seat F/O's is about 30% below our probationary pay.
This doesn't imply any answer to any question. It is just the statement that this hasn't been studied is just completely false.
I gave two year rates, but this disparity exists all throughout the longevity steps. The problems it can generate cascade down in many different ways, but I am already going to be firebombed for "managing expectations" so I will just quit while I am behind. Just imagine a career path for a pilot that comes in at mainline narrowbody first officer and one that comes in at industry standard 76 seat wages. Show me those career paths and how a pilot in each path has equal pay over their first five years. The problems are incredibly complex.
By the way, all of this information is available to anyone that would take a couple of hours to do the research. Doing that work might be a better path to making an informed decision.
Man, 2 years to RJ Captain is the average now?
BTW I didn't adjust those numbers for the size of the respective fleets. For instance, just because Comair is below $64/hr for so long doesn't mean that's the average as Comair only makes up 11% of the flying.
The largest carrier is Pinnacle 32%, ExpressJet 24%, Skywest 16%, Comair 11%, Compass 7%, Republic's Shuttle America 5%, Republic's Chautauqua 4%, GoJet 2%. And if I had more time I'd multiply their average pilots per plane by the number of 50 and 76 seaters.
per Alfa's demand we do more research. please see airlinepilotcentral.com.
Does the IBT put that out?
As to Comair, is there anything at play there other than pilot wages? Also, wrt to pilot wages, why does National let Comair have such low pay rates?
Personally I thought the Comair jets go to Skywest and then GoJet now. Man if I were you guys, I'd have an ALPA drive at Skywest and GoJet.
Alfa's right, it is a complex problem. Scambo's point that it's not just rates is correct too. Using Scambo's way results in a pilot cost disparity of over 60% when compared to either aircraft block hours or pilot cost per pilot block hour. And that's just pilots. Not even including the rest of labor, the additional inefficiency of a new mainline fleet type and all the start-up and sustainment costs of operating a new fleet makes the difference gets even greater.
Oh, and if all those DCI contracts guaranteed profits, why is PCL bankrupt, SKYW breaking even, and wholly owned Comair collapsing?
Oh, and if all those DCI contracts guaranteed profits, why is PCL bankrupt, SKYW breaking even, and wholly owned Comair collapsing?
Last edited by forgot to bid; 04-09-2012 at 10:58 AM.
04-09-2012 | 10:50 AM
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From: 5-9 block, kill removing
Excellent, excellent post FTB.
"Sunlight is the greatest disinfectant"
"Sunlight is the greatest disinfectant"
04-09-2012 | 11:17 AM
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From: Light Chop
The one thing that's been good talking to some of you folks who argue against fighting to end scope or improve it in dramatic ways, is you sharpen our argument against anyone from the company saying the same things you do.
Which is ironic, because I believe your mission was to tell the improve scope crowd to go [redacted].
Which is ironic, because I believe your mission was to tell the improve scope crowd to go [redacted].
04-09-2012 | 12:03 PM
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From: Light Chop
The other thing to consider in regard to small jet outsourcing, is it possible these regionals have so underpriced their product that they are completely in capable of providing the service they said they could?
If that is the case, why are we comparing ourselves and being told to match are underprice them if in the end they cannot deliver?
Look if Dunder Mifflin wants to offer you paper at $.01 page and Michael Scott Paper says they can do $.006 if you commit to them longer term, but in truth it costs both $.009 to provide the paper, what is the wiser chooce for you the buyer over the long term?
or did we toss the term long term in the trash?
If that is the case, why are we comparing ourselves and being told to match are underprice them if in the end they cannot deliver?
Look if Dunder Mifflin wants to offer you paper at $.01 page and Michael Scott Paper says they can do $.006 if you commit to them longer term, but in truth it costs both $.009 to provide the paper, what is the wiser chooce for you the buyer over the long term?
or did we toss the term long term in the trash?
04-09-2012 | 01:38 PM
Da Hudge
Joined: Oct 2006
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From: Poodle Whisperer
Well done, ftb.
Alpha's predictable response to my predictable response was very predictable.
On another note, if you're going to pull behind the displaced threshold and into the blast pad off the end of a runway and then hold your brakes while you're at takeoff power in order to show off to people, it would behoove you to make sure that no one is video taping you:
LiveLeak.com - Girl blown away by jet blast
The dude that stepped back first suffered a broken leg and the chick suffered head and neck trauma. Stupid actions on their part.... but exacerbated by the showboating and the plane being 50+ feet into the blast pad.
Alpha's predictable response to my predictable response was very predictable.
On another note, if you're going to pull behind the displaced threshold and into the blast pad off the end of a runway and then hold your brakes while you're at takeoff power in order to show off to people, it would behoove you to make sure that no one is video taping you:
LiveLeak.com - Girl blown away by jet blast
The dude that stepped back first suffered a broken leg and the chick suffered head and neck trauma. Stupid actions on their part.... but exacerbated by the showboating and the plane being 50+ feet into the blast pad.
04-09-2012 | 01:42 PM
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Also, for those looking for a seniority jump in a merger, Alaska is taking apps again:
Dear XXXXXXXX
Yes, the “rumor” is true! We are reopening the pilot application process the morning of Wednesday, April 11th. We are excited to continue the hiring process and would like to share the following helpful application tips:
•Only online applications are accepted via https://careers.alaskaair.com/Alaska-CareerOps.asp starting Wednesday, April 11th.
•The requisition will be open for 7 days; closing at 11:59pm on Wednesday, April 18th.
•Although you previously applied in XXXXX 2011, you will need to reapply when the posting window opens.
•The hiring team will review resumes once the requisition closes. We are looking for best qualified and don’t provide preference to those that applied first.
•The system will accept an infinite number of applications.
•The REQUIRED browser is Internet Explorer 8 or above. In order to successfully submit your application, you MUST use this browser.
•The online application process takes approximately 30 minutes. Be prepared to supply 10 years of work experience plus your high school information as well as any secondary education.
•A current resume is a required part of the application process. Once your application is submitted, your resume cannot be edited or deleted.
•You are able to attach up to five letters of recommendation. To do this, you must click on the “My Career Tools” section on the careers page (upper right hand corner) and navigate to the section titled “Cover Letters and Attachments”. You will then be prompted to add attachment and list the document title.
•Please read each question with care and not rush through the application. This will ensure the application is processed correctly and given full consideration for an interview. Due to the selection process being highly competitive, it is critical the application has accurate information.
We strongly encourage you to apply during the week following April 11th, not necessarily on April 11th. As witnessed last time, too many candidates applying at the same time slows down the system and causes possible inactivity.
If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to email us at [email protected].
We sincerely appreciate your continual pursuit of employment at Alaska Airlines.
Thanks,
SM
04-09-2012 | 02:47 PM
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
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From: A-320A
I don't think he'll be the last one. I know others with apps in, 1 who was just contacted for interview.
Also, for those looking for a seniority jump in a merger, Alaska is taking apps again:
Dear XXXXXXXX
Yes, the “rumor” is true! We are reopening the pilot application process the morning of Wednesday, April 11th. We are excited to continue the hiring process and would like to share the following helpful application tips:
•Only online applications are accepted via https://careers.alaskaair.com/Alaska-CareerOps.asp starting Wednesday, April 11th.
•The requisition will be open for 7 days; closing at 11:59pm on Wednesday, April 18th.
•Although you previously applied in XXXXX 2011, you will need to reapply when the posting window opens.
•The hiring team will review resumes once the requisition closes. We are looking for best qualified and don’t provide preference to those that applied first.
•The system will accept an infinite number of applications.
•The REQUIRED browser is Internet Explorer 8 or above. In order to successfully submit your application, you MUST use this browser.
•The online application process takes approximately 30 minutes. Be prepared to supply 10 years of work experience plus your high school information as well as any secondary education.
•A current resume is a required part of the application process. Once your application is submitted, your resume cannot be edited or deleted.
•You are able to attach up to five letters of recommendation. To do this, you must click on the “My Career Tools” section on the careers page (upper right hand corner) and navigate to the section titled “Cover Letters and Attachments”. You will then be prompted to add attachment and list the document title.
•Please read each question with care and not rush through the application. This will ensure the application is processed correctly and given full consideration for an interview. Due to the selection process being highly competitive, it is critical the application has accurate information.
We strongly encourage you to apply during the week following April 11th, not necessarily on April 11th. As witnessed last time, too many candidates applying at the same time slows down the system and causes possible inactivity.
If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to email us at [email protected].
We sincerely appreciate your continual pursuit of employment at Alaska Airlines.
Thanks,
SM
Also, for those looking for a seniority jump in a merger, Alaska is taking apps again:
Dear XXXXXXXX
Yes, the “rumor” is true! We are reopening the pilot application process the morning of Wednesday, April 11th. We are excited to continue the hiring process and would like to share the following helpful application tips:
•Only online applications are accepted via https://careers.alaskaair.com/Alaska-CareerOps.asp starting Wednesday, April 11th.
•The requisition will be open for 7 days; closing at 11:59pm on Wednesday, April 18th.
•Although you previously applied in XXXXX 2011, you will need to reapply when the posting window opens.
•The hiring team will review resumes once the requisition closes. We are looking for best qualified and don’t provide preference to those that applied first.
•The system will accept an infinite number of applications.
•The REQUIRED browser is Internet Explorer 8 or above. In order to successfully submit your application, you MUST use this browser.
•The online application process takes approximately 30 minutes. Be prepared to supply 10 years of work experience plus your high school information as well as any secondary education.
•A current resume is a required part of the application process. Once your application is submitted, your resume cannot be edited or deleted.
•You are able to attach up to five letters of recommendation. To do this, you must click on the “My Career Tools” section on the careers page (upper right hand corner) and navigate to the section titled “Cover Letters and Attachments”. You will then be prompted to add attachment and list the document title.
•Please read each question with care and not rush through the application. This will ensure the application is processed correctly and given full consideration for an interview. Due to the selection process being highly competitive, it is critical the application has accurate information.
We strongly encourage you to apply during the week following April 11th, not necessarily on April 11th. As witnessed last time, too many candidates applying at the same time slows down the system and causes possible inactivity.
If you have any questions, please don’t hesitate to email us at [email protected].
We sincerely appreciate your continual pursuit of employment at Alaska Airlines.
Thanks,
SM
As we discussed a month ago. There are a lot of pilots looking. The overall value of the new contract is very important for anyone below 1/2 down the list. We will see how things develop, and how many will opt to leave.
04-09-2012 | 02:49 PM
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Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,070
Likes: 1
From: Urban chicken rancher.
Hey Guys
Heads up. I just had my credit card info stolen and used while laying over in DTW. Pretty sure it was at the Max & Ermas close to the hotel. They used it several times for groceries in and around Detroit. Don't normally eat at Max & Erma's but it was Easter and the only place open.
Heads up. I just had my credit card info stolen and used while laying over in DTW. Pretty sure it was at the Max & Ermas close to the hotel. They used it several times for groceries in and around Detroit. Don't normally eat at Max & Erma's but it was Easter and the only place open.
04-09-2012 | 02:50 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,070
Likes: 1
From: Urban chicken rancher.
I'm watching closely. Don't wanna bolt but might have to.
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