Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1186270)

Oh, say it again, say it again :)But wait a minute ...
Kindly do not assume that I accept one of President Moak's jets to be flown by someone other than a Delta pilot, much less 153 or 255, or more. Don't confuse me with Sam I Am who eventually did decide he liked Green Eggs and Ham. I do not like outsourcing here or there. I don't like outsourcing anywhere. Matters not to me if it has 1 seat, 100 seats, or 500. The principle of unity is what matters and what directly empowers us to negotiate this contract and future contracts.

Again, the reason we are screwed now and the reason our current strategy will screw us later is because we are stuck in the mindset of dividing and allocating rather than looking at the big picture and seeking unity.

We've simply got the wrong goals and with the wrong goals will seek incorrect solutions. We need to look first at how to unify our flying by ensuring Delta seniority list pilots perform that work. Our MEC has never made that a goal.

Originally Posted by forgot to bid (Post 1186188)

proposal, if section 1 should be stand alone, then let's have two ta's... section 1 first, we'll vote on it, then sections 2-28 and we'll vote on that.

that way nobody is swayed about section 1 because of section 3 or what have you.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1186283)

Again, you are correct, but lets look at where we are now, and what this group can accomplish. We have a PWA and all its holes. We are in talks and there will be a result. Do you take it, or do you play poker and stand to lose more than a few more 76 seat jets? Does it matter, and is not the time to make the last stand for unity? Do you think you have the leverage the way the PWA is currently written to force the companies hand in this? Do you think this pilot group will be willing to stand strong with a CH11 contract for five to ten years? You leverage will come from the pilot group, the same group that filled out the surveys. The same group that wants an alternate union and wants to divide the power base, not solidify it. Remember that

The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.

Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.

Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.


*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.

Originally Posted by georgetg (Post 1186286)

ACL, Bar,

What both of your points show is how critical it is to holdfast on gains previously achieved. If we trade this for that we are caught in a zero sum gain shifting inequities from one group to another.

What we need is very simple:

Improvements over and beyond our current PWA for:

• Pay
• Scope
• Work Rules
• Everything Else

That's the best way to evaluate the efficacy of our negotiations and to form an opinion on how to vote...

Cheers
George

Originally Posted by Jack Bauer (Post 1186275)

These two are non starters for me. Too much long term damage to quality of life. Not everybody wants to be on the road the majority of their life. In a previous life with another carrier that had the ability to fly their pilots more hours I can tell you it was absolutely exhausting.

Delta will eventually short staff this airline and you will be owned (flying and away from home more) than you ever wished you were. As you say these rules also remove the ability for those wanting to bump pay (premium pay) to make a more money in a short period of time. Bottom line, with these rules most will be flying more hours whether they like it or not. It removes choices.

Originally Posted by acl65pilot (Post 1186283)

Again, you are correct, but lets look at where we are now, and what this group can accomplish. We have a PWA and all its holes. We are in talks and there will be a result. Do you take it, or do you play poker and stand to lose more than a few more 76 seat jets? Does it matter, and is not the time to make the last stand for unity? Do you think you have the leverage the way the PWA is currently written to force the companies hand in this? Do you think this pilot group will be willing to stand strong with a CH11 contract for five to ten years? You leverage will come from the pilot group, the same group that filled out the surveys. The same group that wants an alternate union and wants to divide the power base, not solidify it. Remember that

The issue with unity as described is something that has been evolving for the last 30 years. Pilots vote what they want, get what they want for they and their families, not what will be good for generations to come. Bar, how do you propose fixing this mindset? By telling every pilot here that, sorry I know you want X or Y, but you are not going to get it until you get unity. Go take your Defensive Unity course? I suspect that would be a sure fire way for the membership to seek an agent that gives them what they want.

Its a quagmire, and adding 76 seat jets in any number is just outsourcing more DC-9's. Not fixing the PWA on JV's and CS's is by the same definition not getting unity and outsourcing top end flying to save bottom end flying.

Can this group get it all, without losing a lot in the coming years as the current book is used to beat us to a pulp on holding companies, JV's and CS's? Is a few more large RJ's the sacrfice we as a group need to make to cover our flanks to truly have the leverage to force unity though the ranks and end the DCI ponzi scheme? The intent and end game will or will not be self evident in the live contractual wording we see, but these questions I ask, are ones that every scope hawk, dead zoner, 777A, 744A, new hire, and silent majority pilot, etc needs to ask not just themselves but the pilots they fly with.


*Point of my post(s) is not to disagree but to further the debate. We need good level headed debate on this issue to shed light in every corner.

Originally Posted by georgetg (Post 1186261)

Reserve Rules Redux

Reserve guarantee increased to 72:00 – 80:00 (variable with ALV)
This is a great improvement to Delta pilot reserve pay. The change results in approximately 76:00 average guarantee, a gain of 6:00 of pay. This brings our contract to the level of the top tier industry reserve guarantees.

At the DTW LEC meeting, they indicated that the new reserve ALV will be lineholder ALV -2.

The Bad:
X-days increased to 13/14 for off-season remain at 12/13 for the summer peak
This looks like a win on paper, more reserve days off in the winter, status quo in the summer. But when compounded by the conversion of July and August to 30 day bid periods, the change removes two off days from the busy summer season. Obviously July and August are still 31 day months, but the number of x-days is reduced from 13 to 12. During less busy months the gain of an extra day off will give reserve pilots more ability to schedule their month, likely to result in the conversion of a standard long-call day to an off-day from a pilot schedule standpoint. Conversely during the peak summer period in July and August, reserves will lose a combined two days off while being exposed to extra short-call days and a higher max reserve cap. The net result is a reduction in reserves' quality of life at a time when scheduling is most likely to test contractual limits.

Excellent points and some that I didn't consider initially.

Short Call increased to seven for bid periods with a reserve guarantee of 75-80
This is nothing short of unbelievable. The reduction from 8 to 6 short-calls was one of four key gains of the Joint Contract highlighted by Lee Moak in his Chairmans letter in June 2008 and presented as a significant quality of life improvement in the associated Negotiators Notepad signed by Tim O'Malley. It was a hard-fought contractual gain. And while the new flight-time duty-time regulations will force all domestic airlines with lesser work rules to improve their working agreements, Delta pilots will see an increase in short-call days. With the extra day of duty, domestic pilots will see their short call extended by 12 hours during the high ALV months, while international pilots will have their hours extended by 14. For a pilot that commutes this change could easily come with the loss of an associated day-off. Unfortunately this will also have a negative effect on the additional manning that would have been required if the new FTDT regulations were applied to the current PWA reserve rules.

Going down to 6 was a big deal when we had 8 but, you at least got a short call credit for each trip that started before 1200 on your first day back when we had 8. Some months, that was worth 3-4 short call credits. That went away when we went to 6 short calls - now they want 7 without that provision. I'll pass.

The Bottom Line:
Overall the proposed changes are a Faustian deal, where quality of life and Delta pilot positions are traded for the potential of higher pay. Reducing days off, raising the max monthly cap and adding a short call day during the peak season where pilot schedules are already maxed out seems particularly ill-advised. It is hard to imagine a pilot with a full-time reserve schedule being part of the deliberations to generate the reserve changes proposed in the Negotiators Notepad. Especially considering the impact of lower manning will have on retarding a reserve pilots ability to advance to line-holder.

Completely agree. When things start moving (retirement and if we have any growth), reserves are going to be flying their tails off. Remember, right now, the airline is overstaffed. Life on reserve isn't great, but it isn't terrible because we have the manning. In the summer of 2008, we were flying our tails off. Commuting to that was pure ____. I was thinking, what did I sign up for? That's what the future holds for reserves, IMO.

Cheers
George

Originally Posted by georgetg (Post 1186271)

It would be nice if our current negotiating strategy would be one of expanding and building upon hard-fought gains from previous contracts, instead of "monetizing past gains" some with TOs signature on them, in exchange with other items....


Cheers
George

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1186301)

George,

Good post and understand the history of "monetizing past gains." When we took "credits" for pre-bankruptcy concessions those "credits" disappeared in subsequent bankruptcy renegotiation.

Organized labor is a power game. When gains are sold, power is reduced. That hurts you in the next round of bargaining. Thus you have a declining trend vector following lower lows and lower highs.

We do not so much monetize gains, as we do pull out a high interest credit card and say, "here, just charge it." The bill will come and when it comes it will be considerably larger and more expensive than whatever shiny plastic crap we bought was worth.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar (Post 1186290)

Good post and understood.

Lets start with the basics. What bargaining leverage do we have now?
(A) Because Richard Anderson, Sleepy Ed and Mike Campbell take pride in Delta pilots and want us to be the highest paid.
(B) Scope sale

What bargaining leverage will we have eventually with our current contract and a protracted negotiation?
(A) Strike Vote
(B) Withdrawal of "enthusiasm"
(C) Self Help

The contract you referenced at ASA came after tough negotiations when pilots were grounding airplanes at outstations for missing seat adjustment knobs and testing the Emergency Lights on every walk around. Do you appreciate how many bulbs have to be working to successfully test that system? How does the FAA view operation of the aircraft without working safety systems? Why do I know that two of five bulbs in the Emergency Exit sign of airplanes I used to fly can be deferred?

I have appreciation for working together and partnership. We all need Delta to be successful. But, outsourcing is a mortal threat and deserves a mortal response. If Management threatens our job, we should respond in kind.