Herkflyr

I disagree. The 5.15 ADG is one of the biggest game changers in decades. The fact that we have to wait two more months is chicken feed. We will have it for decades to come.

We did not resolve the 117 issue "on the cheap." It was a very good agreement (CDO fiasco notwithstanding).

sailingfun

The highest GS month in history came after the 117 agreement.

Klondike Bear

Because of summer or because of the Loa? I know they sure dried up for me after it. And I do agree about the 5.15. It just seems to me that we could have waited and gotten more for it. 5.15 ADG and other improvements. I don't see what leverage we have now.

sailingfun

They dried up for me to. I suspect however in my category it has a lot more to do with manning then the contract. We used to start the month with single digit reserve coverage. Since last fall we have normally had 20 to 30 reserves per day pre month vice 7 or 8. The opposite has happened for the copilots. They went from hugely fat with 50 to 60 reserves many days to very short. I doubt the 117 loa had anything to do with either situation.

Klondike Bear

Very true. One other question I have why do we have to wait for November for 5.15 ADG? Seems like if Icrew and scheduling could handle all the other 117 rule changes 5.15 would have been easy.

DAL 88 Driver

This is a good illustration of how pilots traditionally have handled CDO's. It illustrates perfectly the fact that they are counting on the time at the hotel on the CDO for their sleep. If they were taking advantage of their FAR 117 mandated 8 hour uninterrupted sleep opportunity during their FAR 117 mandated 10 hour rest break prior to beginning the Flight Duty Period for the CDO, then it shouldn't make much (any?) difference "when wx or mx hits."

Bottom line... CDO's are a way around the intent of the FAR rest requirements. Always have been. If pilots have to get a significant amount of sleep during the day in preparation for a CDO, it takes away the whole reason they wanted it in the first place. It is what it is, folks. I know a lot of pilots over the years have rationalized how they can suck it up for a few days and get by on significantly less than 8 hours of sleep per night. That doesn't make it smart or safe. Well established sleep science (the same exact sleep science used in creating the minimum rest requirements in FAR 117) bears that out.

DAL 88 Driver

I asked this same question of my reps as soon as I found out the 5:15 wouldn't take effect until November. I got a reply talking about all the thousands of lines of code that had to be reprogrammed in order to accomplish the change in Delta's system.

I don't doubt that it takes some significant programming to get this done. But I also don't doubt that, had it been a change that benefited management and not us, it would have been done within a week.

Oberon

International trips have to start sometime. Are international guys sitting in a hotel room getting proper rest before the start of their trip? Maybe. More likely, especially in NYC, they are commuting from who knows where and possibly taking a nap in the crew room. I really have no idea what international guys do before their trips. I expect them to show up ready to go because that's what professionals do.

Augmented international trips are really similar to CDOs. Augmented pilots get a break on a passenger seat or if they are really lucky, a rest facility. CDO pilots get a break in a hotel room. The rest facility is nice but the hotel is better. CDOs have an extra takeoff and landing.


The entire basis of your argument is that pilots don't sleep while at home. If you had said "I talked to a guy once who said he doesn't sleep between CDOs", this would be anecdotal. It's not even that, it's just you saying things and expecting others to believe you.

I have anecdotal evidence that pilots do sleep while at home since when I did CDOs I slept at home (or in a crash pad) but that is only slightly more useful than your argument. I'm more interested in empirical evidence. To the best of my knowledge there hasn't been a study of pilot behavior on their time off. The FAA investigated and determined a mid duty period nap in conjunction with a known rest period was enough to safely carry out up to five SDPs with only a two hour sleep opportunity (note this isn't the same as two hours of sleep). That doesn't tell us anything about what pilots are doing on their time off but does tell us that it was considered when designing the rule.

From the final rule which you quote often.

Page 9


Whatever...just post the whole thing and let others decide what I meant.

I am saying CDOs are safe. I'm not saying they are fine. They are pretty undesirable without a whole lot of rules and a lot of credit. My list was "spit-balling", hardly complete.

I didn't answer your question because I don't buy the premise that CDOs somehow cause otherwise professional pilots to do act in an unprofessional way. I expect pilots to show up prepared and think it's really rare when they don't. If a professional pilot showed up for a flight with "3 or 4 hours" of sleep in a 24 hour period I trust that he knows his body well enough to know he is fit for flight.

It is condescending to insist that pilots who bid CDOs don't get proper rest. There are plenty of reasons to bid CDOs. If they are worth 1030 I'd bid them because I'd work three nights a week, sleep in the morning and still have time to mow my lawn before work. I'd prefer to sleep from 1030 to 630 every night but I'm a pilot and I'm not afforded that luxury anyway. I'd never see them at my seniority though.

No they aren't. They are acting in ways that may cause them to be fatigued but they are not "by definition flying fatigued."

The definition of fatigue according to the FAA.

Being tired isn't the same as being fatigued.

You said something you made up, "(CDO) pilots are staying up all day...with AT BEST 3 or 4 hours of sleep", came to the conclusion that said pilots were fatigued then used the transitive property to determine CDOs are dangerous. This is not a good reason not to do CDOs...and there are good reasons not to do CDOs.

CDOs are undesirable because they operate during WOCL and make you tired. They become a whole lot more desirable when you attach a bunch of work rules and back the Brinks truck up to pay for them. I don't see any reason the company would want that so as much fun as this discussion is I suspect it's moot.

tl;dr

DAL 88 Driver

You're right. There is no hard data to support my position or yours. All I have to go on is what I've seen with my own two eyes during my 25+ year career. Pilots who like and bid CDO's do so because it affords them the opportunity to be home all day, every day and do the things they want/need to do. The vast majority of the pilots I've known over the years who like/bid CDO's talking glowingly about how great it is to be home every day, all day. They are very clear that the only sleep they get is whatever sleep the CDO provides during the hotel break in between flights and maybe a short nap in the morning when they get back. That means they are getting at best 3 or 4 hours of sleep in the 24 hour period. Well documented and accepted sleep science says that only 3 or 4 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period is not enough for a human being to function at 100%. Therefore, the vast majority of pilots who have flown CDO's over the years have flown fatigued. That is the reality of the history of CDO's. No data. Just plenty of time to have observed it and everybody who has any experience with this and is being honest with themselves knows this to be the case. There is nothing I see that would make it any different at Delta.

And I hope you're right about CDO's being a moot point. Unfortunately, it seems the usual suspects are pushing the concept pretty hard... which tells me that it likely WILL be an issue for C2015.

tsquare

Not what was proposed in the LOA. Not even close. Those were bent metal waiting for a place.