Oberon

You have to have 10 hours rest prior to a CDO too.

I haven't seen anyone advocating adding CDOs because we already do WOCL flying. You have argued CDOs shouldn't be added because of the WOCL aspect and the difficulty getting adequate rest. Some have argued (myself included) the difficulty of getting adequate rest isn't a reason to disqualify CDOs since we already do WOCL flying. The transitive property doesn't apply.

To be clear, I don't think we should add CDOs because they couldn't possible be a better deal than we already have with 5:15 min day. My position could change if the company offered crazy money (and rules) though.

tsquare

Yeah that's kinda how I figure it too. Unless they can make it onerous on US... and I certainly hope that the MEC got the message on the last fiasco. That proposal was pure bullchit.

DAL 88 Driver

Actually, no I haven't. But I just took a quick look at the August bid package for 76ER. Looks to me like the international layovers are all at least 15 hours and most well over 20 hours. Plenty of time there to get 8 hours of sleep. CDO's are different in that the rest period is at home rather than on a layover. They are also different in that the main thing that makes them attractive is the ability to be home all day, every day and do things like running a side business or spending time with family, etc. In general, CDO pilots don't sleep during the day. The only sleep they get is whatever sleep the CDO provides, which is going to be maybe 3 or 4 hours at best. Are you telling me that international pilots don't sleep on their layovers?

In my career, I've done several redeyes and I've done several CDO's. Personally, I'd rather have a root canal than do either one. But again, the difference with the redeye is that the FAA mandated 8 hour sleep opportunity comes on the layover at a hotel. In general, CDO pilots are not sleeping during the day at home.

Okay, here you go....

Maybe in the future if you choose to accuse me of taking you out of context, you might want to go back and read your own post.

Are you not saying that, following your suggested rules, CDO's are fine and safe? I then asked you if you would want your family on an airplane with pilots who have only had 3 or 4 hours of sleep in a 24 hour period. I think that was a fair question (a question you never answered BTW) based on what you said within the context of your post.

I'm sorry, but I don't think there is anything "condescending" about pointing out the track record on the way pilots handle CDO's. The main thing that is attractive about them is the ability to be home all day, every day. That's the main reason that pilots like them and bid them. If they have to sleep 8 hours during the day to be rested for their Flight Duty Period, then it takes away their whole reason for bidding CDO's in the first place. What makes you think that would be any different at Delta?

If pilots are staying up all day (or even taking only a couple hour nap) and then flying a CDO with AT BEST 3 or 4 hours of sleep at the hotel in between flights, then they are by definition flying fatigued. Flying fatigued is dangerous. Ipso facto CDO's are dangerous. You can argue all you want about the challenges of getting adequate rest on international flying and redeyes, but the track record is clear on CDO's. The CDO is a different animal... for all the reasons I've stated.

dtfl

Yep! It will eliminate those 30 hr layovers (most anyway) as the SDP can fly the last in and first out. It will increase our efficiency on trips and will allow more 3 day decent paying trips. I see what they are thinking and I bet $5 they ask for it.

Saabs

I understand a lot of yall are against CDO'S but they aren't as bad as a lot of people on this thread make them out to be - when everything runs as planned. It's when wx or mx hits that they go downhill quick. At airways many of our CDO'S used to be legal overnights, as in 8 to 9 hours "rest". They go really senior and everyone that does them rave about their QOL. But as with everything in life, they just aren't for everyone. I know before LOA 93 (the biggest airways bankruptcy giveaway of all time) a CDO had different duty rigs for back side of the clock and paid 8 or 9 hours. Now they only pay 5.5 to 6.5 on average. So we used to do 2 a week, now you have to do 3 or 4 a week to make enough credit for the month. If you guys do end up with them I hope you get a good back side of the clock rig if you don't already. And USAPA can hopefully get what you guys have a contract cycle behind

tsquare

Could be. The more I think about this the more it seems to me that it will actually require more manning to pull these off. They are gonna have to completely separate them from the rest of the rotations in which they are now contained, which means more crews to do the same amount of flying. I'd love to see alfaromeo put pencil to paper on this one....

Klondike Bear

We lost the high ground for contract 2015. I think the 117 agreement was a huge mistake. We were getting a ton of Greenslips since anything before noon had to go green. The good thing we got we don't get until November. What will make the company negotiate with us? We had leverage and we sold it cheap. I can live with contract 2012, even though I think it could of been better, but I believe the 117 agreement will turn out to screw us over big time. 117 Loa was a tactical win, but a strategic fail.

LowPhlyer

yes. They have no backbone!

LowPhlyer

Did you forget the loss of 60% AFE retirement plan..or just feel it doesn't fit into your argument?

LP

Denny Crane

I have my moments...

Denny