Details on Delta TA
06-12-2015, 02:43 PM
#8152
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by slowplay
This is from UBS:
During C2012 many on this board were advocating waiting for SWAPA. They've waited 3 years and are already 12% behind us in total comp. FedEx and UPS, the other two carriers that have been consistently profitable and in negotiations haven't raised the bar either.
Why are they so delayed?
The ugly: big labor ask coming
SWAPA (pilots union) leadership sees its members as ~12% underpaid relative to current DAL/AAL contracts, and ~20% underpaid relative to tentative agreement (TA) with DAL pilots that (if ratified) would raise base wage rates but scale back profit sharing. SWAPA leadership sees a 15% base wage increase with modestly higher profit-sharing as minimum to get a deal done, and believes management's expectation for an overall cost-neutral labor deal is unrealistic. Remuneration appears to be only
major sticking point with work-rules and growth appearing to be of secondary concern.During C2012 many on this board were advocating waiting for SWAPA. They've waited 3 years and are already 12% behind us in total comp. FedEx and UPS, the other two carriers that have been consistently profitable and in negotiations haven't raised the bar either.
Why are they so delayed?
Carl
06-12-2015, 02:46 PM
#8153
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Originally Posted by slowplay
You are absolutely right. We deserve a heck of a lot more.
So do FedEx. UPS. SWAPA. UAL. APA.
Why haven't they gotten it? Why are we the first group to exceed our C2K pay 12 years later?
Denny, I don't have those numbers handy. IIRC '96 was a 2% cut and added profit sharing. In 1998 we converted 6% profit sharing to pay. We then got the 737-800 payrate, and followed that with the B777 and B767-400 "Delta dot." C2K wound up being UAL plus 1%. They lost that when they went into bankruptcy in 2002. We kept the rates until LOA-46 in November, 2004.
So do FedEx. UPS. SWAPA. UAL. APA.
Why haven't they gotten it? Why are we the first group to exceed our C2K pay 12 years later?
Denny, I don't have those numbers handy. IIRC '96 was a 2% cut and added profit sharing. In 1998 we converted 6% profit sharing to pay. We then got the 737-800 payrate, and followed that with the B777 and B767-400 "Delta dot." C2K wound up being UAL plus 1%. They lost that when they went into bankruptcy in 2002. We kept the rates until LOA-46 in November, 2004.
Thanks for the reply Slow. As a guy who has never voted no on a contract, I'm prepared to wait this one out. For me, the gains don't come anywhere near overcoming the losses...
I'm certainly disappointed with the money (I was for C2012 but I got over it and probably could for this one too) but for me, it's all the other givebacks in this TA.
Denny
Last edited by Denny Crane; 06-12-2015 at 02:54 PM. Reason: Added text
06-12-2015, 02:48 PM
#8154
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Joined APC: Oct 2010
Position: Decoupled
Posts: 922
Originally Posted by jdborg
This needs to be repeated on every page on this board. There are many pilots that don't understand this.
The first step doesn't take place until the end of the year. We are well ahead of that with the voluntary negotiations that have just concluded.
If this TA is rejected, there is nothing to stop either the Company or DALPA from reengaging in negotiations prior to the amendable date at the end of the year. In fairness, I have to point out that both sides would have to agree to it. There is nothing to compel them other than mutual self-interest.
06-12-2015, 02:49 PM
#8155
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Stay THIRSTY, my friends!
Posts: 1,898
Sec. 14 is really frightening considering we don't even know yet what the new FAA regs regarding mental health will look like. Giving your employer full access and authority to look at and make determinations about your mental health is just plain stupid. They are going to be 3rd party because they need a firewall from corporate. There will be a lot of lawsuits when guys have their careers cut short by a vindictive ex or a bad day at work.
06-12-2015, 02:51 PM
#8156
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
Posts: 12,487
Originally Posted by slowplay
I look forward to your industry leading contract.
When will that happen?
How much is 12% of your pay this year? How far behind were you last year? Didn't we start negotiating at the same time in 2012?
It will be nice if you guys for once lift the bar instead of undercutting people until they fall behind you. SWAPA plus....we're counting on you!
When will that happen?
How much is 12% of your pay this year? How far behind were you last year? Didn't we start negotiating at the same time in 2012?
It will be nice if you guys for once lift the bar instead of undercutting people until they fall behind you. SWAPA plus....we're counting on you!
As an aside, slow play here was part of the MEC administration under O'Malley and got booted for his actions during the C2012 sales job. His partner Harwood has gotten back to a full time DALPA position, but slowplay has not. Thus his constant auditioning to get back.
Carl
06-12-2015, 02:51 PM
#8157
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Joined APC: Jun 2015
Position: F/O
Posts: 44
New to this forum. Junior FO with just over a year and off probation so I think I get to vote on this thing. I'll keep it short and straight to the point. When I saw the details of this TA and the sales pitch that has begun only one thing came to mind - To quote from my favorite western "Don't p!$$ down my back and tell me it's raining".
To the ALPA guys on the net:
To deliver this POS in a negotiating environment where profits are through the roof and management (not us) is under the gun to get a quick agreement, is unfathomable. ALPA needs a massive change in leadership or shown the door.
My DPA card is already in the mail and I'm talking to my fellow new hires. Hold on that arrogant assumption that you can never be displaced.
Fights On
To the ALPA guys on the net:
To deliver this POS in a negotiating environment where profits are through the roof and management (not us) is under the gun to get a quick agreement, is unfathomable. ALPA needs a massive change in leadership or shown the door.
My DPA card is already in the mail and I'm talking to my fellow new hires. Hold on that arrogant assumption that you can never be displaced.
Fights On
06-12-2015, 02:54 PM
#8158
Straight QOL, homie
Joined APC: Feb 2012
Position: Record-Shattering Profit Facilitator
Posts: 4,202
Originally Posted by slowplay
You are absolutely right. We deserve a heck of a lot more.
So do FedEx. UPS. SWAPA. UAL. APA.
Why haven't they gotten it?
So do FedEx. UPS. SWAPA. UAL. APA.
Why haven't they gotten it?
Why are you pushing this crap TA? Are you going to be flying under it? Or will you be busy collecting FPL?
No way this thing passes.
06-12-2015, 02:59 PM
#8159
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: 747-400 Captain
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Originally Posted by flyallnite
Everyone needs to read 1.e.9. Why would this even be in there?? In one fell swoop, we're a virtual airline, selling our profession for a few bucks to the Chinese who will gladly fly Delta widebody airplanes in lieu of us. Why has this not been mentioned? Another reason for the rush job...
Market Capitalizations:
Delta $33 billion
The Priceline Group $61 billion
Carl
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