New PSA Pilot Pay Agreement
04-29-2019 | 08:42 PM
#382
In a land of unicorns
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 103
From: Whale FO
Try reading for comprehension.
You are not getting the 10k bonus year 2. You are getting either 5k or 7.5k, depending on how your doh corresponds to quarters.
Hence -
Year 2 Envoy 40 x 1000 = 40k + 7.5 = 47.5k
Year 2 PSA 52 x 1000 = 52k + 8k of the second installment of the sign on bonus received at the end of year 1 = 60k.
Bigger sign on bonus at Envoy? Okay. At PSA you get 10k year 1. What is it at Envoy these days? 17k for the shiny 22k for legacy fleets?
Pay at PSA 50 x 1000 = 50k
Envoy 38 x 1000 = 38k, so a wash on the 145 year one, and -5k on the 175.
Year 1 and 2 together
(Best case Envoy) 47.5 + 38 +22 = 107.5
(Worst case Envoy) 45 + 38 + 17 = 100
PSA 60 + 50 + 10 = 120k
So 12.5 to 20k difference by my non-dfw-175-koolaid math
You are not getting the 10k bonus year 2. You are getting either 5k or 7.5k, depending on how your doh corresponds to quarters.
Hence -
Year 2 Envoy 40 x 1000 = 40k + 7.5 = 47.5k
Year 2 PSA 52 x 1000 = 52k + 8k of the second installment of the sign on bonus received at the end of year 1 = 60k.
Bigger sign on bonus at Envoy? Okay. At PSA you get 10k year 1. What is it at Envoy these days? 17k for the shiny 22k for legacy fleets?
Pay at PSA 50 x 1000 = 50k
Envoy 38 x 1000 = 38k, so a wash on the 145 year one, and -5k on the 175.
Year 1 and 2 together
(Best case Envoy) 47.5 + 38 +22 = 107.5
(Worst case Envoy) 45 + 38 + 17 = 100
PSA 60 + 50 + 10 = 120k
So 12.5 to 20k difference by my non-dfw-175-koolaid math
Anyway. You, as an FO, get $20k in retention bonuses, OR you upgrade and start making higher CA pay. Which one do you want to use in these calculations? You can't just split it halfway the way you choose. Pick one.
How about this: You make $5k second year retention AND you upgrade 6 months in. You see, I can move goalposts too. Then the numbers would be;
38(1st year) + 17(175 signing bonus) + 5(5k retention year 2) + 20(half a year at 2nd year FO pay) + 34(half a year 2nd year CA pay) = 114k.
Take the 145 and you are at a tie. Or upgrade a bit later and you still have same results.
The fact is - the pay difference isn't huge in the FO side. It is much, much bigger for Captains.
Another goalpost moving exercise - you will hold a line much faster at Envoy than at PSA right now. So you can pick up a bit of OT, and those numbers flip over.
My main point is this - don't compare the FO rates, they aren't that important. CA rates are where the magic happens. And where I hope most improvements will be at.
04-29-2019 | 08:44 PM
#383
In a land of unicorns
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 7,072
Likes: 103
From: Whale FO
Man, I DO NOT agree with this. So many good LOA's. Some with unintended consequences to the company.
I've found 16-01 pretty handy on numerous occasions. And 13-13/16-02 has made me quite a bit of money (and the company would like to end those too).
As far as unintended consequences to the company, I used LOA 13-13 to take flying from an FO who had been subjected to forced flying on reserve due to another LOA (LOA has since expired). He later told me, he flew less than half what they had 'forced' on him because I wasn't the only one using LOA 13-13 to exploit the company for more money.
I'm sure others have similar stories where they figure out how to use these LOAs to their advantage.
I've found 16-01 pretty handy on numerous occasions. And 13-13/16-02 has made me quite a bit of money (and the company would like to end those too).
As far as unintended consequences to the company, I used LOA 13-13 to take flying from an FO who had been subjected to forced flying on reserve due to another LOA (LOA has since expired). He later told me, he flew less than half what they had 'forced' on him because I wasn't the only one using LOA 13-13 to exploit the company for more money.
I'm sure others have similar stories where they figure out how to use these LOAs to their advantage.
I'd say 9/10 of them benefit the pilots more.
04-29-2019 | 09:07 PM
#384
Open Time
Joined: Aug 2017
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
It's funny how you, of all people, talk about reading comprehension.
Anyway. You, as an FO, get $20k in retention bonuses, OR you upgrade and start making higher CA pay. Which one do you want to use in these calculations? You can't just split it halfway the way you choose. Pick one.
How about this: You make $5k second year retention AND you upgrade 6 months in. You see, I can move goalposts too. Then the numbers would be;
38(1st year) + 17(175 signing bonus) + 5(5k retention year 2) + 20(half a year at 2nd year FO pay) + 34(half a year 2nd year CA pay) = 114k.
Take the 145 and you are at a tie. Or upgrade a bit later and you still have same results.
The fact is - the pay difference isn't huge in the FO side. It is much, much bigger for Captains.
Another goalpost moving exercise - you will hold a line much faster at Envoy than at PSA right now. So you can pick up a bit of OT, and those numbers flip over.
My main point is this - don't compare the FO rates, they aren't that important. CA rates are where the magic happens. And where I hope most improvements will be at.
Anyway. You, as an FO, get $20k in retention bonuses, OR you upgrade and start making higher CA pay. Which one do you want to use in these calculations? You can't just split it halfway the way you choose. Pick one.
How about this: You make $5k second year retention AND you upgrade 6 months in. You see, I can move goalposts too. Then the numbers would be;
38(1st year) + 17(175 signing bonus) + 5(5k retention year 2) + 20(half a year at 2nd year FO pay) + 34(half a year 2nd year CA pay) = 114k.
Take the 145 and you are at a tie. Or upgrade a bit later and you still have same results.
The fact is - the pay difference isn't huge in the FO side. It is much, much bigger for Captains.
Another goalpost moving exercise - you will hold a line much faster at Envoy than at PSA right now. So you can pick up a bit of OT, and those numbers flip over.
My main point is this - don't compare the FO rates, they aren't that important. CA rates are where the magic happens. And where I hope most improvements will be at.
As Pedro pointed out, their average trip credit is roughly 20% greater than ours.
These all factor in. It's important to talk about all of them.
Last edited by Jamesthunder; 04-29-2019 at 09:25 PM.
04-30-2019 | 01:32 AM
#385
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2017
Posts: 4,182
Likes: 162
Ok, I bite on this one. Here is what I see, a contract, that has so many LOA's that you really can't tell what is going on. When you finally figure it out, you realize that most LOA's favor the company and render the original contract useless, so in my book definitely not great negotiating in the past and if that is supposed to be my indicator for the future then I take my chances with new leadership.
Spotty communication at best and many broken promises. I do see communications for free booze and food which is supposedly the fun part of my dues at work at a time when it seems almost everybody but us is getting pay raises.
Have I volunteered, yes I did, but it seems to be a "closed club" that is not easy to get into.
Bottom line, I stay with my original statement that there is a conflict on interest due to how close all of these guys are to flowing and the fact that nothing is put up for a vote to the pilot group but they get to decide what is acceptable in their opinion.
And last, like it or not we have 3 different pilot groups at the moment with each having their own agenda which is not helping either.
Spotty communication at best and many broken promises. I do see communications for free booze and food which is supposedly the fun part of my dues at work at a time when it seems almost everybody but us is getting pay raises.
Have I volunteered, yes I did, but it seems to be a "closed club" that is not easy to get into.
Bottom line, I stay with my original statement that there is a conflict on interest due to how close all of these guys are to flowing and the fact that nothing is put up for a vote to the pilot group but they get to decide what is acceptable in their opinion.
And last, like it or not we have 3 different pilot groups at the moment with each having their own agenda which is not helping either.
Communications from the MEC are touchy. Everyone wants more but when there isn't anything meaningful to announce, everyone ****s on the emails about them not having anything of substance. So, do you send emails and **** everyone off or dont send as many until there is actually something to say, which of course ****es everyone off for lack of communication. Damed if you do damed if you dont on this one.
I wouldn't say "most" of the LOA's favor the company. As you may have already read, several people feel they certainly help pilots in a lot of ways. Do they all, no, but I dont think most are against the pilot group. I guess this is subjective in how they effect you directly, so I won't try to persuade you. Some will get more from them than others.
The three pilot group argument is true, for now. Come December we will be down to a two pilot group, at least in my opinion. Anyway, I am not trying to disagree to disagree, I understand the frustrations but I dont think the blame rests solely on the MEC for this, at least not our current one.
04-30-2019 | 05:57 AM
#386
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 3,707
Likes: 0
You folks may not be correct in referring to all these matters as LOA's. Most are LOU's, difference is loa is permanent part of cba, whereas lou has a clause, either time limit or 90 day notification to cancell. Big difference. Most what you folks referenced as loa is actually Lou, temporary life.
04-30-2019 | 06:03 AM
#387
Line Holder
Joined: Dec 2016
Posts: 1,073
Likes: 2
The fact is - the pay difference isn't huge in the FO side. It is much, much bigger for Captains.
Another goalpost moving exercise - you will hold a line much faster at Envoy than at PSA right now. So you can pick up a bit of OT, and those numbers flip over.
My main point is this - don't compare the FO rates, they aren't that important. CA rates are where the magic happens. And where I hope most improvements will be at.
Another goalpost moving exercise - you will hold a line much faster at Envoy than at PSA right now. So you can pick up a bit of OT, and those numbers flip over.
My main point is this - don't compare the FO rates, they aren't that important. CA rates are where the magic happens. And where I hope most improvements will be at.
Want to do 50/50 FO/CA year 2? Fine. Do the same for PSA, the difference is even greater with their CA rates.
It's like comparing 777 12yr CA pay and saying everything below that is unimportant.
04-30-2019 | 11:26 AM
#390
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2017
Posts: 1,729
Likes: 0
Dera is just trying to justify to himself his decision to come here.
Envoy worked out great for me, and I’m moving on in a few weeks thanks to no reserve on the 145 back in 2016 and again no reserve after CA upgrade.
It’s not all doom and gloom but it’s not rainbows and unicorns either.
Your experience at envoy has more to do with luck/timing than anything else.
The place has definitely fell behind with regards to pay/conditions compared to other regionals. Add to that the increasing combative/punitive nature of crew scheduling and other departments.
Envoy worked out great for me, and I’m moving on in a few weeks thanks to no reserve on the 145 back in 2016 and again no reserve after CA upgrade.
It’s not all doom and gloom but it’s not rainbows and unicorns either.
Your experience at envoy has more to do with luck/timing than anything else.
The place has definitely fell behind with regards to pay/conditions compared to other regionals. Add to that the increasing combative/punitive nature of crew scheduling and other departments.
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