Look at the 175 RSV lists. There's a ton of people who hide out. They finally caught the 10 year FO in this vacancy bid though.

So you just said you didn't get any bonuses, then you say you did.

Going back to the original point - you can't compare 2nd year pay rates, if you suddenly decide "oh but over here you will upgrade after 18 months".
Compare the pay+bonus, or not. Don't move the goal posts to wherever they fit your agenda.
The thing is - there's not much difference in 2nd year pay between PSA and Envoy for FOs. Depending on your date of hire, it's somewhere between a few hundred to a few thousand. But at the same time - you'll likely hold a line at Envoy during that second year, and can pick up a bit of OT, and that levels it off. Goalposts can be moved that way too.
The CA rates are where the big difference is.
As everyone already said - you upgrade so quick anyway that FO rates really shouldn't be that high on the agenda anyway. Get the CA rates up to the pattern and everyone is happy.

 

Soooooo what’s this MEC meeting about? Any guesses?

 

I never said I don’t get any bonus, just said you won’t get the entire lot unless you really hide out, which is counter productive to career and moving on to better things.

 

I said:
And you said "yes". Pretty reasonable to interpret that as you didn't get bonuses as a new hire. But clearly you did.

Anyway, no need to argue this.
Let's change the numbers then, compare 2nd year PSA FO pay to 2nd year Envoy pay, where for 6 months you get straight FO pay, and 6 months you get CA pay.

 

Ok, I bite on this one. Here is what I see, a contract, that has so many LOA's that you really can't tell what is going on. When you finally figure it out, you realize that most LOA's favor the company and render the original contract useless, so in my book definitely not great negotiating in the past and if that is supposed to be my indicator for the future then I take my chances with new leadership.

Spotty communication at best and many broken promises. I do see communications for free booze and food which is supposedly the fun part of my dues at work at a time when it seems almost everybody but us is getting pay raises.

Have I volunteered, yes I did, but it seems to be a "closed club" that is not easy to get into.

Bottom line, I stay with my original statement that there is a conflict on interest due to how close all of these guys are to flowing and the fact that nothing is put up for a vote to the pilot group but they get to decide what is acceptable in their opinion.

And last, like it or not we have 3 different pilot groups at the moment with each having their own agenda which is not helping either.

 

/\ This (pointing to dera's post), I agree with a lot of. I've said since day one that CA rates are out of wack here, even while I was receiving the benefit of bonuses. When the company started the forced upgrades, it just reinforced my stance. If the pay was structured correctly, there would be no need for force upgrades.

That said, with the delay in retention bonus payment, second year FO pay is not as rosy as being depicted. I suppose if you can avoid upgrade for the full 3rd year in full it get's close the same but that's where it ends before it drops off again... again, if you can avoid upgrade. Why should we be avoiding upgrade???

 

Agreed, CA rates need to be addressed badly, there is a disconnect here and fixing it would go a long way to fix a lot of issues we are having at the moment.

 

Try reading for comprehension.
You are not getting the 10k bonus year 2. You are getting either 5k or 7.5k, depending on how your doh corresponds to quarters.
Hence -
Year 2 Envoy 40 x 1000 = 40k + 7.5 = 47.5k
Year 2 PSA 52 x 1000 = 52k + 8k of the second installment of the sign on bonus received at the end of year 1 = 60k.

Bigger sign on bonus at Envoy? Okay. At PSA you get 10k year 1. What is it at Envoy these days? 17k for the shiny 22k for legacy fleets?
Pay at PSA 50 x 1000 = 50k
Envoy 38 x 1000 = 38k, so a wash on the 145 year one, and -5k on the 175.
Year 1 and 2 together
(Best case Envoy) 47.5 + 38 +22 = 107.5
(Worst case Envoy) 45 + 38 + 17 = 100
PSA 60 + 50 + 10 = 120k
So 12.5 to 20k difference by my non-dfw-175-koolaid math

 

Man, I DO NOT agree with this. So many good LOA's. Some with unintended consequences to the company.

I've found 16-01 pretty handy on numerous occasions. And 13-13/16-02 has made me quite a bit of money (and the company would like to end those too).

As far as unintended consequences to the company, I used LOA 13-13 to take flying from an FO who had been subjected to forced flying on reserve due to another LOA (LOA has since expired). He later told me, he flew less than half what they had 'forced' on him because I wasn't the only one using LOA 13-13 to exploit the company for more money.

I'm sure others have similar stories where they figure out how to use these LOAs to their advantage.

 

Commuter Hotels, displacement protections, unrestricted OT, cancelled OT premiums. Seem like LOAs that help the pilot group. Although they were Band-Aids to stop the bleeding for a little longer.