Furlough Protection
03-27-2020, 06:21 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 546
Originally Posted by highfarfast
I will.
Envoy ALPA would have to agree to flowbacks. AA can't just do it because they want to. APA can't just do it because they want to. AA and APA together can't just do it because they want to. With the current situation what it is, it's hard to imagine Envoy ALPA giving in to flowbacks for anything given it could mean almost all of Envoy's pilot group furloughed in a few months as AA furloughs a few thousand pilots (not out of the relm of possibilities).
Envoy ALPA would have to agree to flowbacks. AA can't just do it because they want to. APA can't just do it because they want to. AA and APA together can't just do it because they want to. With the current situation what it is, it's hard to imagine Envoy ALPA giving in to flowbacks for anything given it could mean almost all of Envoy's pilot group furloughed in a few months as AA furloughs a few thousand pilots (not out of the relm of possibilities).
Everything you said is true IF the “flowbacks” were to go to the top of the list, or integrated into it, or had some special provision where they were guaranteed a CA seat regardless of seniority (this is what screwed up the last flow back clusterf*#k).
If ENY were to hire furloughed AA pilots as new hires with no special seniority provisions, this could be done without input from ALPA. It wouldn’t really hurt anyone here, so I don’t see any reason for us to object anyway. We (ALPA) don’t get a say in who ENY hires. The contract only governs their conditions once they’re on property.
03-27-2020, 06:38 PM
#32
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2017
Posts: 2,510
There’s several issues here. There are three wholly owned regionals now. They would all have to take flow backs.
Would you only flow BACK if you had come from that regional? Technically that’s the only way it is an actual flow back. Other wise a flow DOWN, maybe.
AA is giving all sorts of things to the pilots it is displacing. Envoy isn’t even willing to TALK about anything.
I’m sure AA will try and use us as much as possible if they can get away with it. We cost less than mainline and with the current loads, there aren’t a lot of routes we couldn’t fly. But Envoy is having flying cut as well. Just how much we don’t know. Even with flying shifted our way, we will still ultimately need less staffing.
Would you only flow BACK if you had come from that regional? Technically that’s the only way it is an actual flow back. Other wise a flow DOWN, maybe.
AA is giving all sorts of things to the pilots it is displacing. Envoy isn’t even willing to TALK about anything.
I’m sure AA will try and use us as much as possible if they can get away with it. We cost less than mainline and with the current loads, there aren’t a lot of routes we couldn’t fly. But Envoy is having flying cut as well. Just how much we don’t know. Even with flying shifted our way, we will still ultimately need less staffing.
03-27-2020, 06:41 PM
#33
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by highfarfast
I will.
Envoy ALPA would have to agree to flowbacks. AA can't just do it because they want to. APA can't just do it because they want to. AA and APA together can't just do it because they want to. With the current situation what it is, it's hard to imagine Envoy ALPA giving in to flowbacks for anything given it could mean almost all of Envoy's pilot group furloughed in a few months as AA furloughs a few thousand pilots (not out of the relm of possibilities).
Envoy ALPA would have to agree to flowbacks. AA can't just do it because they want to. APA can't just do it because they want to. AA and APA together can't just do it because they want to. With the current situation what it is, it's hard to imagine Envoy ALPA giving in to flowbacks for anything given it could mean almost all of Envoy's pilot group furloughed in a few months as AA furloughs a few thousand pilots (not out of the relm of possibilities).
03-27-2020, 07:42 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by But seriously
Allow me to correct one thing:
Everything you said is true IF the “flowbacks” were to go to the top of the list, or integrated into it, or had some special provision where they were guaranteed a CA seat regardless of seniority (this is what screwed up the last flow back clusterf*#k).
If ENY were to hire furloughed AA pilots as new hires with no special seniority provisions, this could be done without input from ALPA. It wouldn’t really hurt anyone here, so I don’t see any reason for us to object anyway. We (ALPA) don’t get a say in who ENY hires. The contract only governs their conditions once they’re on property.
Everything you said is true IF the “flowbacks” were to go to the top of the list, or integrated into it, or had some special provision where they were guaranteed a CA seat regardless of seniority (this is what screwed up the last flow back clusterf*#k).
If ENY were to hire furloughed AA pilots as new hires with no special seniority provisions, this could be done without input from ALPA. It wouldn’t really hurt anyone here, so I don’t see any reason for us to object anyway. We (ALPA) don’t get a say in who ENY hires. The contract only governs their conditions once they’re on property.
03-27-2020, 07:51 PM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2016
Posts: 2,465
Originally Posted by MqWhistleblower
Envoy wouldn’t be the only accepting flow backs. PSA and Piedmont would have to be in the same boat for a flow back to happen.
Keep in mind, if anyone approves flowback and AA furloughs, any regional that has flowback will have screwed over its own pilots. I can see an agreement being pulled off in the situation we were in a month ago when we thought hiring was going to go on like gangbusters for a decade plus and WO regionals would need a carrot to hang on to captains. Today though? It's suicide.
03-28-2020, 05:14 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2019
Posts: 537
An agreement to hire them at the bottom of the list would be pointless. If AA is furloughing then envoy is overstaffed as well. Would an AA pilot really want to come sit airport standby every day with 7-8 days at home as a commuter? I'd rather get a job at Walmart if I were them. Or you know, save some of that pay for an emergency fund.
03-28-2020, 06:32 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 502
Originally Posted by rld1k
An agreement to hire them at the bottom of the list would be pointless. If AA is furloughing then envoy is overstaffed as well. Would an AA pilot really want to come sit airport standby every day with 7-8 days at home as a commuter? I'd rather get a job at Walmart if I were them. Or you know, save some of that pay for an emergency fund.
03-28-2020, 07:05 AM
#38
Banned
Joined APC: Nov 2019
Posts: 172
Originally Posted by uavking
If I recall correctly (because I heard this from some 10 yr capt who I flew with as an FO), something like this happened to TWA guys. They did, indeed, sit standby for awhile. One was said to commute into LGA, go into the sleep room, and emerge several days later having never been used. So, whether all this is true or not, don't underestimate what guys will put up with to keep bread on the table.
03-28-2020, 09:39 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2016
Position: FO
Posts: 793
Furlough Protection
Originally Posted by Ijustlikeflying
never gonna happen
Not even for a new flow agreement supported by APA, ALPA, AAG to include: WO pilots issued AA seniority # by WO DOH, then DOB for overlaps. Increased flow guarantees such as WO will now make up 75-80% of new AA classes when the music resumes.
I can see the bandwagon now for Flowbacks come Oct 1st. Plenty of time to marinate the idea, let it sink in. Will prevent vertical movement to LLCs/ULLCs with higher margins when the music resumes.
As it stands, the flow has weakened for years to come.
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