New Envoy Information
02-03-2016 | 06:32 PM
#1081
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 674
Likes: 0
This is just another post of spin mixed perhaps more desperation then usual. Considering the circumstances, it's to be expected.
The reality is this (in much shorter Readers Digest version); The Envoy flow is being slowed to minimum rate when it is neither necessary nor warranted.
- Part-time lines.
- ZERO time lines.
- Low block hour lines (< 65 hours).
- 35-50% reserve coverage.
It is undeniable by those with no motive, assigned task or agenda.
The reality is this (in much shorter Readers Digest version); The Envoy flow is being slowed to minimum rate when it is neither necessary nor warranted.
- Part-time lines.
- ZERO time lines.
- Low block hour lines (< 65 hours).
- 35-50% reserve coverage.
It is undeniable by those with no motive, assigned task or agenda.
02-03-2016 | 06:35 PM
#1082
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 854
Likes: 0
This is just another post of spin mixed perhaps more desperation then usual. Considering the circumstances, it's to be expected.
The reality is this (in much shorter Readers Digest version); The Envoy flow is being slowed to minimum rate when it is neither necessary nor warranted.
- Part-time lines.
- ZERO time lines.
- Low block hour lines (< 65 hours).
- 35-50% reserve coverage.
It is undeniable by those with no motive, assigned task or agenda.
The reality is this (in much shorter Readers Digest version); The Envoy flow is being slowed to minimum rate when it is neither necessary nor warranted.
- Part-time lines.
- ZERO time lines.
- Low block hour lines (< 65 hours).
- 35-50% reserve coverage.
It is undeniable by those with no motive, assigned task or agenda.
02-03-2016 | 06:48 PM
#1083
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
To add to this, if ENY is metering now when so overstaffed, there will be no other time they won't meter, because ENY will never be so overstaffed again. This essentially negates the entire intent (on the union's side, anyway) behind the 50%. It's a pretty clear message to the pilot group, which in turn becomes a pretty clear message to potential new hires. It's such a dumb move by the company and I really can't figure out why they would do it, if for no other reason than it is in their nature.
02-03-2016 | 06:54 PM
#1084
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
Another question being raised by this metering: how on earth are they ever going to true up the 824? We'll never have staffing as good as we do now, but if they meter then someday they'll have to send more than 50% to true up. How will sending more than 50% in the less-staffed future cause less of an operational disruption than today? It won't, and so they'll just violate it again, right? These people can't be trusted.
They could continue a monthly defecit via metering until say, May and then depending on the number of Letter T pilots stop altogether (the guess at the number of those who will return has increased). If say, the second half of 2016 is all Letter T, then there's no increase in 824 deficit because no street hiring either, so no aggrivation of true up requirements. Then when the 824 starts up again in early 2017, they continue to meter until the very end truing up then, thus maximizing Envoy's pilot assets to cover for other regionals as long as possible.
That's a LOT of lost AA seniority.
02-03-2016 | 07:12 PM
#1085
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 833
Likes: 0
From: Feito no Brasil, CA
You call what I say spin, the proceed to repeat EXACTLY what I just said. There's no need to re-word my post and pass it off as your own. I very clearly stated the correct, factual information in my post...want to actually read it? No? Don't worry...It's above your level, I'm sure.
And of course an "AA" pilot would know so much detail about what our lines and reserve coverage look like. Say hi to my other favorite AA pilot: Mason32.
And of course an "AA" pilot would know so much detail about what our lines and reserve coverage look like. Say hi to my other favorite AA pilot: Mason32.
He's not very original. He beats the same drum everywhere. He repeats the negative side of every argument, then adds a hefty dash of sky falling devoid of reason.
02-03-2016 | 07:26 PM
#1086
Banned
Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Likes: 0
02-03-2016 | 07:59 PM
#1087
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 833
Likes: 0
From: Feito no Brasil, CA
02-04-2016 | 03:13 AM
#1089
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,578
Likes: 48
From: Semi-Retired...
For the record, I've been trying to avoid posting anything for the time being as the Union is working with the company on certain issues. But in light of eaglefly/thrustlever/grim reaper/dirk diggler being unable to get over himself, I'll clear up as much as I can.
There are two issues at play here. Issue one, which is the only REAL issue is semantics in regards to metering. The contract states the company can meter if flowing more than 30 will disrupt operations at Envoy. The company has decided to meter to 30 stating that operations will be disrupted at some point down the road. On the flip side of that, the argument-which I agree with for the record-is that the company can't claim a disruption in operations when we are currently over-staffed.
So the question then becomes: can the company meter or not meter? Either way, the minimum that will go is 30. That's worse case. And this is the only real issue at present.
Unfortunately this thing has taken a life of it's own online thanks to eagle lounge (as usual). People quickly began to extrapolate that 5 people were withheld this month will turn into 10 next month, 20 the month after that and so on. And that somehow all this will affect our upgrade and flow times.
Here's the truth...and I hope everyone pays attention: All of our upgrade and flow numbers are based on flowing the minimum per month. Which is 30/month for the 824 and 25/month for the Protected Pilot group and so on. That hasn't changed.
American could hire 200 pilots next month and meter down to 30...and the upgrade/flow numbers would still be unchanged...because the minimum flowed. The issue in that case would be the same we have now: Can the company meter? I'm part of the group that doesn't think the company can in an over-staffed situation.
But those are two separate issues. The only thing that could potentially throw our upgrade/flow numbers off is if the hiring numbers dried up. Even then it would take multiple months throughout the year of no hiring to have a tangible effect.
Finally, the two emails the Union sent out recently is the Union doing exactly what they should be doing: putting pressure on the company to explain why they metered from 35 to 30 for next month. They have tied in the flow to upgrade and hiring numbers because American is using flow as a recruiting tool. It's a classic turncoat tactic: Use the company's words against them. The Charlie Bucket email was another example of this. The Union used recruiting numbers from 2015 to extrapolate a negative picture...again, for the company's benefit. This was no accident. Up until September 2015 we were hiring very few pilots. Since then the numbers have been doing very well.
Those Union emails have a target audience and it isn't the pilots. It's the company. Everyone from Parker, Isom, Hashimoto, down to Winkley, Temples, and Pedro receive any and all Union communications on their desk daily. Think about that...the Union knows what they are doing. Let them do their job without losing your cool.
Don't make any of this more than what it is. As long as 30/month are flowing-which they are-the upgrade and flow estimates are unchanged. The one and only issue here is the original one: can the company meter down to 30 when we are over-staffed? I say NO, they can not. Lets focus on getting that resolved without setting fire to the entire house just because there is a draft in one of the windows.
There are two issues at play here. Issue one, which is the only REAL issue is semantics in regards to metering. The contract states the company can meter if flowing more than 30 will disrupt operations at Envoy. The company has decided to meter to 30 stating that operations will be disrupted at some point down the road. On the flip side of that, the argument-which I agree with for the record-is that the company can't claim a disruption in operations when we are currently over-staffed.
So the question then becomes: can the company meter or not meter? Either way, the minimum that will go is 30. That's worse case. And this is the only real issue at present.
Unfortunately this thing has taken a life of it's own online thanks to eagle lounge (as usual). People quickly began to extrapolate that 5 people were withheld this month will turn into 10 next month, 20 the month after that and so on. And that somehow all this will affect our upgrade and flow times.
Here's the truth...and I hope everyone pays attention: All of our upgrade and flow numbers are based on flowing the minimum per month. Which is 30/month for the 824 and 25/month for the Protected Pilot group and so on. That hasn't changed.
American could hire 200 pilots next month and meter down to 30...and the upgrade/flow numbers would still be unchanged...because the minimum flowed. The issue in that case would be the same we have now: Can the company meter? I'm part of the group that doesn't think the company can in an over-staffed situation.
But those are two separate issues. The only thing that could potentially throw our upgrade/flow numbers off is if the hiring numbers dried up. Even then it would take multiple months throughout the year of no hiring to have a tangible effect.
Finally, the two emails the Union sent out recently is the Union doing exactly what they should be doing: putting pressure on the company to explain why they metered from 35 to 30 for next month. They have tied in the flow to upgrade and hiring numbers because American is using flow as a recruiting tool. It's a classic turncoat tactic: Use the company's words against them. The Charlie Bucket email was another example of this. The Union used recruiting numbers from 2015 to extrapolate a negative picture...again, for the company's benefit. This was no accident. Up until September 2015 we were hiring very few pilots. Since then the numbers have been doing very well.
Those Union emails have a target audience and it isn't the pilots. It's the company. Everyone from Parker, Isom, Hashimoto, down to Winkley, Temples, and Pedro receive any and all Union communications on their desk daily. Think about that...the Union knows what they are doing. Let them do their job without losing your cool.
Don't make any of this more than what it is. As long as 30/month are flowing-which they are-the upgrade and flow estimates are unchanged. The one and only issue here is the original one: can the company meter down to 30 when we are over-staffed? I say NO, they can not. Lets focus on getting that resolved without setting fire to the entire house just because there is a draft in one of the windows.
02-04-2016 | 03:45 AM
#1090
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2015
Posts: 540
Likes: 0
It's comforting to know that there are those out there that are perfectly fine with the company making up their own interpretations.
Metering now because operations will be disrupted in the future? Puhleeze.
As I've said before, if they are metering NOW while there is an overstaffing situation with low time lines and an exceptionally large percentage of the pilot group on reserve, what is to say that they don't reduce the flow to just a few bodies per month in the future?
Imagine a world in the near future when attrition has finally caught up with what Envoy management wants as a pilot staffing number. If Envoy needs every single body on the list to fly its schedule, perhaps this summer, are they going to start cancelling flights to honor this flow? Absolutely not. They will do what they need to in order to keep the planes flying and tell the union to grieve it.
Then you have another 824 scenario in which the union grieves the flow not being honored which will take many years to iron out. Firstly, it will take the union WAY TOO LONG to even get started with this grievance. In my opinion, they should start the grievance NOW as it will take years to get a resolution. The Envoy ALPA union will likely follow the path of their predecessors in first, trying to work with the company. When they figure out that the company isn't going to work with them, they will then make a bunch of noise and put out a bunch of ALPA blasts for months on end. Then and only then will they consider even discussing possibly filing a grievance. From there, it will take months and months of MEC meetings in executive session as the company goes hot and cold playing them to delay this grievance. Yet again. Yes, history does repeat itself.
Skyvector, CUJ and AMF and the others in this crowd. Will your tone change when YOU are stuck at Envoy getting beat down with junior man trips and min days off when staffing gets critical? Or will you continue to suit up, put on your choir robe and file into the choir loft in corporate HQ in Irving to sing the company praises day after day? Let me guess, today you guys are singing the oldie but goodie; "Great is Envoy's Faithfulness To Me."
Don't think it will happen? Look only as far as what is happening today. Metering with an OVERSTAFFED situation.
The company has proved beyond all reasonable measurables that they are absolutely not going to honor this flow. It's time to educate new hires to avoid this place as that.....coupled with boots walking out the door are the only items that the Envoy pilot group has in their arsenal to get the attention of the company.
Metering now because operations will be disrupted in the future? Puhleeze.
As I've said before, if they are metering NOW while there is an overstaffing situation with low time lines and an exceptionally large percentage of the pilot group on reserve, what is to say that they don't reduce the flow to just a few bodies per month in the future?
Imagine a world in the near future when attrition has finally caught up with what Envoy management wants as a pilot staffing number. If Envoy needs every single body on the list to fly its schedule, perhaps this summer, are they going to start cancelling flights to honor this flow? Absolutely not. They will do what they need to in order to keep the planes flying and tell the union to grieve it.
Then you have another 824 scenario in which the union grieves the flow not being honored which will take many years to iron out. Firstly, it will take the union WAY TOO LONG to even get started with this grievance. In my opinion, they should start the grievance NOW as it will take years to get a resolution. The Envoy ALPA union will likely follow the path of their predecessors in first, trying to work with the company. When they figure out that the company isn't going to work with them, they will then make a bunch of noise and put out a bunch of ALPA blasts for months on end. Then and only then will they consider even discussing possibly filing a grievance. From there, it will take months and months of MEC meetings in executive session as the company goes hot and cold playing them to delay this grievance. Yet again. Yes, history does repeat itself.
Skyvector, CUJ and AMF and the others in this crowd. Will your tone change when YOU are stuck at Envoy getting beat down with junior man trips and min days off when staffing gets critical? Or will you continue to suit up, put on your choir robe and file into the choir loft in corporate HQ in Irving to sing the company praises day after day? Let me guess, today you guys are singing the oldie but goodie; "Great is Envoy's Faithfulness To Me."
Don't think it will happen? Look only as far as what is happening today. Metering with an OVERSTAFFED situation.
The company has proved beyond all reasonable measurables that they are absolutely not going to honor this flow. It's time to educate new hires to avoid this place as that.....coupled with boots walking out the door are the only items that the Envoy pilot group has in their arsenal to get the attention of the company.
Last edited by ag386; 02-04-2016 at 04:17 AM.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
