New Envoy Information
02-04-2016, 03:13 AM
#1051
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,127
Originally Posted by Skyvector
For the record, I've been trying to avoid posting anything for the time being as the Union is working with the company on certain issues. But in light of eaglefly/thrustlever/grim reaper/dirk diggler being unable to get over himself, I'll clear up as much as I can.
There are two issues at play here. Issue one, which is the only REAL issue is semantics in regards to metering. The contract states the company can meter if flowing more than 30 will disrupt operations at Envoy. The company has decided to meter to 30 stating that operations will be disrupted at some point down the road. On the flip side of that, the argument-which I agree with for the record-is that the company can't claim a disruption in operations when we are currently over-staffed.
So the question then becomes: can the company meter or not meter? Either way, the minimum that will go is 30. That's worse case. And this is the only real issue at present.
Unfortunately this thing has taken a life of it's own online thanks to eagle lounge (as usual). People quickly began to extrapolate that 5 people were withheld this month will turn into 10 next month, 20 the month after that and so on. And that somehow all this will affect our upgrade and flow times.
Here's the truth...and I hope everyone pays attention: All of our upgrade and flow numbers are based on flowing the minimum per month. Which is 30/month for the 824 and 25/month for the Protected Pilot group and so on. That hasn't changed.
American could hire 200 pilots next month and meter down to 30...and the upgrade/flow numbers would still be unchanged...because the minimum flowed. The issue in that case would be the same we have now: Can the company meter? I'm part of the group that doesn't think the company can in an over-staffed situation.
But those are two separate issues. The only thing that could potentially throw our upgrade/flow numbers off is if the hiring numbers dried up. Even then it would take multiple months throughout the year of no hiring to have a tangible effect.
Finally, the two emails the Union sent out recently is the Union doing exactly what they should be doing: putting pressure on the company to explain why they metered from 35 to 30 for next month. They have tied in the flow to upgrade and hiring numbers because American is using flow as a recruiting tool. It's a classic turncoat tactic: Use the company's words against them. The Charlie Bucket email was another example of this. The Union used recruiting numbers from 2015 to extrapolate a negative picture...again, for the company's benefit. This was no accident. Up until September 2015 we were hiring very few pilots. Since then the numbers have been doing very well.
Those Union emails have a target audience and it isn't the pilots. It's the company. Everyone from Parker, Isom, Hashimoto, down to Winkley, Temples, and Pedro receive any and all Union communications on their desk daily. Think about that...the Union knows what they are doing. Let them do their job without losing your cool.
Don't make any of this more than what it is. As long as 30/month are flowing-which they are-the upgrade and flow estimates are unchanged. The one and only issue here is the original one: can the company meter down to 30 when we are over-staffed? I say NO, they can not. Lets focus on getting that resolved without setting fire to the entire house just because there is a draft in one of the windows.
There are two issues at play here. Issue one, which is the only REAL issue is semantics in regards to metering. The contract states the company can meter if flowing more than 30 will disrupt operations at Envoy. The company has decided to meter to 30 stating that operations will be disrupted at some point down the road. On the flip side of that, the argument-which I agree with for the record-is that the company can't claim a disruption in operations when we are currently over-staffed.
So the question then becomes: can the company meter or not meter? Either way, the minimum that will go is 30. That's worse case. And this is the only real issue at present.
Unfortunately this thing has taken a life of it's own online thanks to eagle lounge (as usual). People quickly began to extrapolate that 5 people were withheld this month will turn into 10 next month, 20 the month after that and so on. And that somehow all this will affect our upgrade and flow times.
Here's the truth...and I hope everyone pays attention: All of our upgrade and flow numbers are based on flowing the minimum per month. Which is 30/month for the 824 and 25/month for the Protected Pilot group and so on. That hasn't changed.
American could hire 200 pilots next month and meter down to 30...and the upgrade/flow numbers would still be unchanged...because the minimum flowed. The issue in that case would be the same we have now: Can the company meter? I'm part of the group that doesn't think the company can in an over-staffed situation.
But those are two separate issues. The only thing that could potentially throw our upgrade/flow numbers off is if the hiring numbers dried up. Even then it would take multiple months throughout the year of no hiring to have a tangible effect.
Finally, the two emails the Union sent out recently is the Union doing exactly what they should be doing: putting pressure on the company to explain why they metered from 35 to 30 for next month. They have tied in the flow to upgrade and hiring numbers because American is using flow as a recruiting tool. It's a classic turncoat tactic: Use the company's words against them. The Charlie Bucket email was another example of this. The Union used recruiting numbers from 2015 to extrapolate a negative picture...again, for the company's benefit. This was no accident. Up until September 2015 we were hiring very few pilots. Since then the numbers have been doing very well.
Those Union emails have a target audience and it isn't the pilots. It's the company. Everyone from Parker, Isom, Hashimoto, down to Winkley, Temples, and Pedro receive any and all Union communications on their desk daily. Think about that...the Union knows what they are doing. Let them do their job without losing your cool.
Don't make any of this more than what it is. As long as 30/month are flowing-which they are-the upgrade and flow estimates are unchanged. The one and only issue here is the original one: can the company meter down to 30 when we are over-staffed? I say NO, they can not. Lets focus on getting that resolved without setting fire to the entire house just because there is a draft in one of the windows.
02-04-2016, 03:45 AM
#1052
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 540
Originally Posted by Cujo665
worth reading again
Metering now because operations will be disrupted in the future? Puhleeze.
As I've said before, if they are metering NOW while there is an overstaffing situation with low time lines and an exceptionally large percentage of the pilot group on reserve, what is to say that they don't reduce the flow to just a few bodies per month in the future?
Imagine a world in the near future when attrition has finally caught up with what Envoy management wants as a pilot staffing number. If Envoy needs every single body on the list to fly its schedule, perhaps this summer, are they going to start cancelling flights to honor this flow? Absolutely not. They will do what they need to in order to keep the planes flying and tell the union to grieve it.
Then you have another 824 scenario in which the union grieves the flow not being honored which will take many years to iron out. Firstly, it will take the union WAY TOO LONG to even get started with this grievance. In my opinion, they should start the grievance NOW as it will take years to get a resolution. The Envoy ALPA union will likely follow the path of their predecessors in first, trying to work with the company. When they figure out that the company isn't going to work with them, they will then make a bunch of noise and put out a bunch of ALPA blasts for months on end. Then and only then will they consider even discussing possibly filing a grievance. From there, it will take months and months of MEC meetings in executive session as the company goes hot and cold playing them to delay this grievance. Yet again. Yes, history does repeat itself.
Skyvector, CUJ and AMF and the others in this crowd. Will your tone change when YOU are stuck at Envoy getting beat down with junior man trips and min days off when staffing gets critical? Or will you continue to suit up, put on your choir robe and file into the choir loft in corporate HQ in Irving to sing the company praises day after day? Let me guess, today you guys are singing the oldie but goodie; "Great is Envoy's Faithfulness To Me."
Don't think it will happen? Look only as far as what is happening today. Metering with an OVERSTAFFED situation.
The company has proved beyond all reasonable measurables that they are absolutely not going to honor this flow. It's time to educate new hires to avoid this place as that.....coupled with boots walking out the door are the only items that the Envoy pilot group has in their arsenal to get the attention of the company.
Last edited by ag386; 02-04-2016 at 04:17 AM.
02-04-2016, 04:33 AM
#1053
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Cujo665
worth reading again
Poor Charlie. Probably just figuring out his ticket is made of fool's gold. When the flow stops this Summer, what will he do then ? That is the question.
Find a better Chocolate factory ?
02-04-2016, 05:16 AM
#1054
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by ag386
It's comforting to know that there are those out there that are perfectly fine with the company making up their own interpretations.
Metering now because operations will be disrupted in the future? Puhleeze.
As I've said before, if they are metering NOW while there is an overstaffing situation with low time lines and an exceptionally large percentage of the pilot group on reserve, what is to say that they don't reduce the flow to just a few bodies per month in the future?
Imagine a world in the near future when attrition has finally caught up with what Envoy management wants as a pilot staffing number. If Envoy needs every single body on the list to fly its schedule, perhaps this summer, are they going to start cancelling flights to honor this flow? Absolutely not. They will do what they need to in order to keep the planes flying and tell the union to grieve it.
Then you have another 824 scenario in which the union grieves the flow not being honored which will take many years to iron out. Firstly, it will take the union WAY TOO LONG to even get started with this grievance. In my opinion, they should start the grievance NOW as it will take years to get a resolution. The Envoy ALPA union will likely follow the path of their predecessors in first, trying to work with the company. When they figure out that the company isn't going to work with them, they will then make a bunch of noise and put out a bunch of ALPA blasts for months on end. Then and only then will they consider even discussing possibly filing a grievance. From there, it will take months and months of MEC meetings in executive session as the company goes hot and cold playing them to delay this grievance. Yet again. Yes, history does repeat itself.
Skyvector, CUJ and AMF and the others in this crowd. Will your tone change when YOU are stuck at Envoy getting beat down with junior man trips and min days off when staffing gets critical? Or will you continue to suit up, put on your choir robe and file into the choir loft in corporate HQ in Irving to sing the company praises day after day? Let me guess, today you guys are singing the oldie but goodie; "Great is Envoy's Faithfulness To Me."
Don't think it will happen? Look only as far as what is happening today. Metering with an OVERSTAFFED situation.
The company has proved beyond all reasonable measurables that they are absolutely not going to honor this flow. It's time to educate new hires to avoid this place as that.....coupled with boots walking out the door are the only items that the Envoy pilot group has in their arsenal to get the attention of the company.
Metering now because operations will be disrupted in the future? Puhleeze.
As I've said before, if they are metering NOW while there is an overstaffing situation with low time lines and an exceptionally large percentage of the pilot group on reserve, what is to say that they don't reduce the flow to just a few bodies per month in the future?
Imagine a world in the near future when attrition has finally caught up with what Envoy management wants as a pilot staffing number. If Envoy needs every single body on the list to fly its schedule, perhaps this summer, are they going to start cancelling flights to honor this flow? Absolutely not. They will do what they need to in order to keep the planes flying and tell the union to grieve it.
Then you have another 824 scenario in which the union grieves the flow not being honored which will take many years to iron out. Firstly, it will take the union WAY TOO LONG to even get started with this grievance. In my opinion, they should start the grievance NOW as it will take years to get a resolution. The Envoy ALPA union will likely follow the path of their predecessors in first, trying to work with the company. When they figure out that the company isn't going to work with them, they will then make a bunch of noise and put out a bunch of ALPA blasts for months on end. Then and only then will they consider even discussing possibly filing a grievance. From there, it will take months and months of MEC meetings in executive session as the company goes hot and cold playing them to delay this grievance. Yet again. Yes, history does repeat itself.
Skyvector, CUJ and AMF and the others in this crowd. Will your tone change when YOU are stuck at Envoy getting beat down with junior man trips and min days off when staffing gets critical? Or will you continue to suit up, put on your choir robe and file into the choir loft in corporate HQ in Irving to sing the company praises day after day? Let me guess, today you guys are singing the oldie but goodie; "Great is Envoy's Faithfulness To Me."
Don't think it will happen? Look only as far as what is happening today. Metering with an OVERSTAFFED situation.
The company has proved beyond all reasonable measurables that they are absolutely not going to honor this flow. It's time to educate new hires to avoid this place as that.....coupled with boots walking out the door are the only items that the Envoy pilot group has in their arsenal to get the attention of the company.
). From my perspective, it's another unmistakable symptom of a relationship built with bad construction via cheap materials and poor upkeep that has been manifesting itself for decades there in various ways like rotting framework, arcing electrical wiring, crumbling foundation supports, leaking roofing coupled with the attitude of bad landlords who demand and expect full compliance from their tenants, but for as long as I can remember refuse to meet the standards and requirements they demand of their tenants by ignoring the deficiencies of the collective house they both exist in and taking advantage at almost every opportunity and who have disconnected their phone to avoid hearing their tenants valid concerns and complaints.
This isn't something new, but another indication of something old and ingrained.
02-04-2016, 05:20 AM
#1055
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2014
Position: Semi-Retired...
Posts: 3,127
Originally Posted by ag386
It's comforting to know that there are those out there that are perfectly fine with the company making up their own interpretations.
02-04-2016, 05:30 AM
#1056
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Cujo665
Clearly you have not read what he wrote.
I do understand your situation of having to fly under the radar quietly now until you flow, but what has once again occurred cannot be swept under the rug as a new sudden, unanticipated development. It's kinda ironic though in that from what ALPA says, this is more of AAG's doing then Envoy management and it has been you that has trumpeted how AAG has been living up to their promises. Now you agree there is no need to do this and yet it is being done anyway which to me, is clearly NOT living up to their promises.
02-04-2016, 05:41 AM
#1057
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
Originally Posted by eaglefly
I have and what I read was simply a new spin in the attempt to counter what he can no longer deny. That NEW spin is to acknowledge, but minimize what is occurring as something miniscule and temporary, when clearly it is really something indicative of the long-term systemic philosophy of how the pilots have been treated there and you of all people should know that. Considering all his posts, comments, efforts and positions of the past here, I think it would be laughable to think he's actually on the pilots side.
I do understand your situation of having to fly under the radar quietly now until you flow, but what has once again occurred cannot be swept under the rug as a new sudden, unanticipated development. It's kinda ironic though in that from what ALPA says, this is more of AAG's doing then Envoy management and it has been you that has trumpeted how AAG has been living up to their promises. Now you agree there is no need to do this and yet it is being done anyway which to me, is clearly NOT living up to their promises.
I do understand your situation of having to fly under the radar quietly now until you flow, but what has once again occurred cannot be swept under the rug as a new sudden, unanticipated development. It's kinda ironic though in that from what ALPA says, this is more of AAG's doing then Envoy management and it has been you that has trumpeted how AAG has been living up to their promises. Now you agree there is no need to do this and yet it is being done anyway which to me, is clearly NOT living up to their promises.
Well, bless your heart.
02-04-2016, 05:53 AM
#1059
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 416
Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox
Well, bless your heart.
In short, if I were a potential new-hire I would steer clear of envoy for now. It could be a great place to work if flow agreements and contracts are followed, but both AAG and envoy have PROVEN that they have no intention of doing so. Sad.
02-04-2016, 06:11 AM
#1060
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Eaglepilot84
Love him or hate him, he didn't say anything wrong. AAG has shown their hand in how they intend to honor the flow, which is basically do whatever they want. If they have falsely interpreted it to suit their short term needs, in a severely overstaffed situation, just imagine how it will be handled when staffing is brought back to a more reasonable level.
In short, if I were a potential new-hire I would steer clear of envoy for now. It could be a great place to work if flow agreements and contracts are followed, but both AAG and envoy have PROVEN that they have no intention of doing so. Sad.
In short, if I were a potential new-hire I would steer clear of envoy for now. It could be a great place to work if flow agreements and contracts are followed, but both AAG and envoy have PROVEN that they have no intention of doing so. Sad.
It also won't materially impact pilots considering Envoy in the future as those in the pipeline will probably still fulfill that process and the real problem of minimal available pilots outside of that won't change except for the worse, but it would be correct to think virtually no one would jump ship from another regional TO Envoy under those conditions either unless their regional has or is tanking. Envoy will STILL contract once the flow stops this Summer, but slower. That will completely can any upgrade or flow projections and I'd expect that carrot to rot into dust for the time being.
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