New Envoy Information
02-29-2016, 11:20 AM
#1551
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by ag386
I just gave you some facts a couple of posts back. One of your guys immediately responded stating "there I go again, twisting the facts." You can't "twist the facts." They are what they are.
I stand by my facts. Today Envoy has:
8 year upgrade
16.5 year flow
Refute that.
I stand by my facts. Today Envoy has:
8 year upgrade
16.5 year flow
Refute that.
02-29-2016, 11:27 AM
#1552
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by boiler07
The longevity of the pilots currently flowing does not serve as an accurate prediction of the time to flow for a new hire.
02-29-2016, 11:33 AM
#1553
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2015
Posts: 540
Originally Posted by boiler07
Their guy? 
The longevity of the pilots currently flowing does not serve as an accurate prediction of the time to flow for a new hire.
Can YOU refute THAT?
The longevity of the pilots currently flowing does not serve as an accurate prediction of the time to flow for a new hire.
Can YOU refute THAT?
I agree that the date of pilots currently flowing may not necessarily be an indicator of a future flow time frame. What I can give you though is the last pilot to flow was around the 330's on the list. Let's just look at those hired through the end of 2011 since that's about when the current agreement of 50% ends. The end of 2011 hires are around the 1710s. So, 1380ish guys to flow. If you flow 300 per year, you are looking at about 4.6 years to get through the end of 2011. So, about October 2020 until the last 2011 hire makes it over from today. So, there's your company math.
That's saying that Envoy will flow 30 guys each and every month for the next 4.6 years from today without stopping. We already know that the flow is going to stop around June. We don't know how long though, it depends on how many come back.
Attrition will likely help improve your numbers above by the way. Now, let's look at the fleet. We know the CRJ's aren't going anywhere soon, if at all. The pilot crunch is on big time as PSA can't find guys to fly what AAG wants them to. Let's just say that Envoy lands with 35 CRJ's, 90 145's and 40 175's to fly for the next two years solid. And let's figure 1750 total guys needed to do that. Sure, you guys have 1/3 or more of the company on reserve today, but as those 175's keep trickling in and the CRJ's stay and 145's stay due to cheap gas, you will need more pilots.
With 1900ish guys on the list today, I would say by the end of this year, you will start hearing the company squawking about not having the pilots to fly what AAG wants them to.
I will admit that if the company honors the flow, which they have already proved they aren't going to, coupled with the math above, yes, it adds up to a 6 year flow for everyone today. A projection just like you guys are so happy to talk about.
Here's your big IF. Will Envoy get enough new hires to replace the pilots leaving via flow and attrition? Hiring 15 per month isn't going to cut it. One thing I can guarantee you is......Envoy ain't gonna park any airplanes that AAG wants them to fly, flow be d**ned.
There's your big problem as I see it. This goes along with the very rosy picture painted above. My best guess is that Envoy will flow out the 824 as soon as possible and then, if not before if 824 guys are needed for staffing, you'll start to hear the company's complaints about how they can't flow due to the necessity of staffing Envoy frames. They've already proven that with an overstaffed situation, they're willing to go against you guys for a mere 5 guys in one month. This is even before the big flow slowdown of the summer while Letter T's return.
02-29-2016, 01:40 PM
#1555
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Posts: 490
Originally Posted by ag386
You are one of the pro Envoy guys right? The ones who jump all over anyone who says something negative about Envoy.
Hardly. As I've said many times, the 2.5 year upgrade is fast becoming an impossibility. It seems to concern you that someone is pointing out your motives, so you have resorted to feeble attempts at lumping me in with the rest.
I agree that the date of pilots currently flowing may not necessarily be an indicator of a future flow time frame.
But you follow up with 6 more paragraphs to redirect your arguments.
What I can give you though is the last pilot to flow was around the 330's on the list. Let's just look at those hired through the end of 2011 since that's about when the current agreement of 50% ends. The end of 2011 hires are around the 1710s. So, 1380ish guys to flow. If you flow 300 per year, you are looking at about 4.6 years to get through the end of 2011. So, about October 2020 until the last 2011 hire makes it over from today. So, there's your company math.
This is actually the most straightforward thing I've ever seen you write.
That's saying that Envoy will flow 30 guys each and every month for the next 4.6 years from today without stopping. We already know that the flow is going to stop around June. We don't know how long though, it depends on how many come back.
Your timeline is wrong, but that doesn't matter. What does matter, like you said, is the duration. It's estimated by AAG management, not Envoy, at 3 months.
Attrition will likely help improve your numbers above by the way. Now, let's look at the fleet. We know the CRJ's aren't going anywhere soon, if at all. The pilot crunch is on big time as PSA can't find guys to fly what AAG wants them to. Let's just say that Envoy lands with 35 CRJ's, 90 145's and 40 175's to fly for the next two years solid. And let's figure 1750 total guys needed to do that. Sure, you guys have 1/3 or more of the company on reserve today, but as those 175's keep trickling in and the CRJ's stay and 145's stay due to cheap gas, you will need more pilots.
With 1900ish guys on the list today, I would say by the end of this year, you will start hearing the company squawking about not having the pilots to fly what AAG wants them to.
You're probably right about this too...along with 90% of the other regionals.
I will admit that if the company honors the flow, which they have already proved they aren't going to, coupled with the math above, yes, it adds up to a 6 year flow for everyone today. A projection just like you guys are so happy to talk about.
This is a bit of a mischaracterization. Management is at a turning point until the end of the year. IF, and yes that's IF, they true-up at the end of the year, there won't be a problem. The agreement allows them to do this.
Here's your big IF. Will Envoy get enough new hires to replace the pilots leaving via flow and attrition? Hiring 15 per month isn't going to cut it. One thing I can guarantee you is......Envoy ain't gonna park any airplanes that AAG wants them to fly, flow be d**ned.
I agree that in the long term the numbers to sustain staffing are questionable, and that is something that every wholly owned will have to address. You however seem to have all the answers.
There's your big problem as I see it. This goes along with the very rosy picture painted above. My best guess is that Envoy will flow out the 824 as soon as possible and then, if not before if 824 guys are needed for staffing, you'll start to hear the company's complaints about how they can't flow due to the necessity of staffing Envoy frames. They've already proven that with an overstaffed situation, they're willing to go against you guys for a mere 5 guys in one month. This is even before the big flow slowdown of the summer while Letter T's return.
Hardly. As I've said many times, the 2.5 year upgrade is fast becoming an impossibility. It seems to concern you that someone is pointing out your motives, so you have resorted to feeble attempts at lumping me in with the rest.
I agree that the date of pilots currently flowing may not necessarily be an indicator of a future flow time frame.
But you follow up with 6 more paragraphs to redirect your arguments.
What I can give you though is the last pilot to flow was around the 330's on the list. Let's just look at those hired through the end of 2011 since that's about when the current agreement of 50% ends. The end of 2011 hires are around the 1710s. So, 1380ish guys to flow. If you flow 300 per year, you are looking at about 4.6 years to get through the end of 2011. So, about October 2020 until the last 2011 hire makes it over from today. So, there's your company math.
This is actually the most straightforward thing I've ever seen you write.
That's saying that Envoy will flow 30 guys each and every month for the next 4.6 years from today without stopping. We already know that the flow is going to stop around June. We don't know how long though, it depends on how many come back.
Your timeline is wrong, but that doesn't matter. What does matter, like you said, is the duration. It's estimated by AAG management, not Envoy, at 3 months.
Attrition will likely help improve your numbers above by the way. Now, let's look at the fleet. We know the CRJ's aren't going anywhere soon, if at all. The pilot crunch is on big time as PSA can't find guys to fly what AAG wants them to. Let's just say that Envoy lands with 35 CRJ's, 90 145's and 40 175's to fly for the next two years solid. And let's figure 1750 total guys needed to do that. Sure, you guys have 1/3 or more of the company on reserve today, but as those 175's keep trickling in and the CRJ's stay and 145's stay due to cheap gas, you will need more pilots.
With 1900ish guys on the list today, I would say by the end of this year, you will start hearing the company squawking about not having the pilots to fly what AAG wants them to.
You're probably right about this too...along with 90% of the other regionals.
I will admit that if the company honors the flow, which they have already proved they aren't going to, coupled with the math above, yes, it adds up to a 6 year flow for everyone today. A projection just like you guys are so happy to talk about.
This is a bit of a mischaracterization. Management is at a turning point until the end of the year. IF, and yes that's IF, they true-up at the end of the year, there won't be a problem. The agreement allows them to do this.
Here's your big IF. Will Envoy get enough new hires to replace the pilots leaving via flow and attrition? Hiring 15 per month isn't going to cut it. One thing I can guarantee you is......Envoy ain't gonna park any airplanes that AAG wants them to fly, flow be d**ned.
I agree that in the long term the numbers to sustain staffing are questionable, and that is something that every wholly owned will have to address. You however seem to have all the answers.
There's your big problem as I see it. This goes along with the very rosy picture painted above. My best guess is that Envoy will flow out the 824 as soon as possible and then, if not before if 824 guys are needed for staffing, you'll start to hear the company's complaints about how they can't flow due to the necessity of staffing Envoy frames. They've already proven that with an overstaffed situation, they're willing to go against you guys for a mere 5 guys in one month. This is even before the big flow slowdown of the summer while Letter T's return.
02-29-2016, 01:48 PM
#1556
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2011
Posts: 179
Originally Posted by cr700
Also, looking at the planned upgrades for 2016, 250, that factors in and works out to be exactly a 2.5 year upgrade for you.
A piece of advice. It's great to get information anywhere you can, but you'll soon realize that here there are some who cannot stand seeing that Envoy is having great success with the flow. They may have taken a long time to upgrade at Envoy and when they see are new guy come on board and upgrade in 2.5 years, it rubs them the wrong way. It shouldn't, as they are flowing as well, but for some reason it doesn't sit well with them.
Just focus on your training and doing the best job that you can. Envoy has a great contract and you will have good quality of life as you move up the seniority ladder and directly into that seat at AA
A piece of advice. It's great to get information anywhere you can, but you'll soon realize that here there are some who cannot stand seeing that Envoy is having great success with the flow. They may have taken a long time to upgrade at Envoy and when they see are new guy come on board and upgrade in 2.5 years, it rubs them the wrong way. It shouldn't, as they are flowing as well, but for some reason it doesn't sit well with them.
Just focus on your training and doing the best job that you can. Envoy has a great contract and you will have good quality of life as you move up the seniority ladder and directly into that seat at AA
Also, with almost every "regional" getting contractual gains in the past four months, we now have the WORST contract except for Mesa and maybe PSA. That's too bad, since Eagle used to be relatively decent.
Last edited by fisherman; 02-29-2016 at 02:01 PM. Reason: spelling
02-29-2016, 02:02 PM
#1557
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2014
Posts: 30
Originally Posted by eaglefly
Bad information ?
By all means correct me with specifics. I'm all ears.
Again, many of you guys slap the "troll" label on anyone and anything you disagree with (ostensibly in the hope you can silence others, no doubt). Labeling others that ad nauseum doesn't make it any more accurate.
By all means correct me with specifics. I'm all ears.
Again, many of you guys slap the "troll" label on anyone and anything you disagree with (ostensibly in the hope you can silence others, no doubt). Labeling others that ad nauseum doesn't make it any more accurate.
This is none of your business.You get your information about envoy from EL then you come here and tell people that this company suck just from what you read in El.
EL is not the place to get accurate information about envoy.
The guys that do work here are the ones that can give accurate information about envoy. You are Irrelevant
Go back to the AA forum and post there, you dont work here.
02-29-2016, 02:23 PM
#1558
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by fina
I dont call anybody a troll except for you and a few others like cr700,he is a sell rep for envoy so his opinion doesn't matter.
This is none of your business.You get your information about envoy from EL then you come here and tell people that this company suck just from what you read in El.
EL is not the place to get accurate information about envoy.
The guys that do work here are the ones that can give accurate information about envoy. You are Irrelevant
Go back to the AA forum and post there, you dont work here.
This is none of your business.You get your information about envoy from EL then you come here and tell people that this company suck just from what you read in El.
EL is not the place to get accurate information about envoy.
The guys that do work here are the ones that can give accurate information about envoy. You are Irrelevant
Go back to the AA forum and post there, you dont work here.
Well, just who do you think is stating the info on EL ?
Not only are you contradicting yourself, but I've asked you to back up your claims about me and so far all I've seen is squat.
02-29-2016, 03:20 PM
#1559
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
New Envoy Information
Typical thread in any ENY APC post:
Someone - starts a thread
Question gets posted
Reply - opinion
Reply - opinion with some hypothetical numbers based on company info
Reply - more info, possible positives
EF - rebuttal, adds nothing new he hasn't said ad nauseam for over a year. :smileyface: (not necessarily wrong, but nothing new)
Reply - opinion, some more info/opinion.
EF - calls previous posters wrong, states ENY salesmen are here. States he has facts. :smileyface:
Reply - what facts? All replies are labeled conspiracy and salesmen!
EF - see?! Nobody can do it. You're all just attacking me. Mah facts! :smileyface:
Rebuttal - you haven't got facts, you're a troll!
EF - personal attacks again! Nobody has any facts except me! Here I am, minding my own business! :smileyface:
New poster - just ignore him! He's just a troll!
EF - you cannot silence me! Personal attacks! Salesmen! :smileyface:
Repeat until thread dies.
New question or info is posted
Start all over again after a new post is made.
Someone - starts a thread
Question gets posted
Reply - opinion
Reply - opinion with some hypothetical numbers based on company info
Reply - more info, possible positives
EF - rebuttal, adds nothing new he hasn't said ad nauseam for over a year. :smileyface: (not necessarily wrong, but nothing new)
Reply - opinion, some more info/opinion.
EF - calls previous posters wrong, states ENY salesmen are here. States he has facts. :smileyface:
Reply - what facts? All replies are labeled conspiracy and salesmen!
EF - see?! Nobody can do it. You're all just attacking me. Mah facts! :smileyface:
Rebuttal - you haven't got facts, you're a troll!
EF - personal attacks again! Nobody has any facts except me! Here I am, minding my own business! :smileyface:
New poster - just ignore him! He's just a troll!
EF - you cannot silence me! Personal attacks! Salesmen! :smileyface:
Repeat until thread dies.
New question or info is posted
Start all over again after a new post is made.
02-29-2016, 04:18 PM
#1560
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by AdiosMikeFox
Typical thread in any ENY APC post:
Someone - starts a thread
Question gets posted
Reply - opinion
Reply - opinion with some hypothetical numbers based on company info
Reply - more info, possible positives
EF - rebuttal, adds nothing new he hasn't said ad nauseam for over a year. :smileyface: (not necessarily wrong, but nothing new)
Reply - opinion, some more info/opinion.
EF - calls previous posters wrong, states ENY salesmen are here. States he has facts. :smileyface:
Reply - what facts? All replies are labeled conspiracy and salesmen!
EF - see?! Nobody can do it. You're all just attacking me. Mah facts! :smileyface:
Rebuttal - you haven't got facts, you're a troll!
EF - personal attacks again! Nobody has any facts except me! Here I am, minding my own business! :smileyface:
New poster - just ignore him! He's just a troll!
EF - you cannot silence me! Personal attacks! Salesmen! :smileyface:
Repeat until thread dies.
New question or info is posted
Start all over again after a new post is made.
Someone - starts a thread
Question gets posted
Reply - opinion
Reply - opinion with some hypothetical numbers based on company info
Reply - more info, possible positives
EF - rebuttal, adds nothing new he hasn't said ad nauseam for over a year. :smileyface: (not necessarily wrong, but nothing new)
Reply - opinion, some more info/opinion.
EF - calls previous posters wrong, states ENY salesmen are here. States he has facts. :smileyface:
Reply - what facts? All replies are labeled conspiracy and salesmen!
EF - see?! Nobody can do it. You're all just attacking me. Mah facts! :smileyface:
Rebuttal - you haven't got facts, you're a troll!
EF - personal attacks again! Nobody has any facts except me! Here I am, minding my own business! :smileyface:
New poster - just ignore him! He's just a troll!
EF - you cannot silence me! Personal attacks! Salesmen! :smileyface:
Repeat until thread dies.
New question or info is posted
Start all over again after a new post is made.
* Other posts, some of which have nothing to do with me or I'm not even actively participating.
* Jackal - eaglefly this, eaglefly that.
* More posting by others and me.
* Jackal - eaglefly up, eaglefly down.
* Yet more posting be various members.
* Jackal - eaglefly left, eaglefly right.
* Other Jackals - no discussion of issues, just more eaglefly, eaglefly, eaglefly.
Repeat ad nauseum.
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