And the holiday training center shutdown/slowdown.

Tossing pilots in the pool with "awarded transfer" dates is not flow.

 

Gents and ladies, I'm really sorry to hear that Envoy continues crushing everyone's hopes. I personally left Envoy, Eagle at the time, two years ago after 7 long years with the company. The last two were especially tough as Eagle was simply imploding at the time and things turned from OK to bad to worse very quickly.

I would like to say to those that aren't even close to an upgrade, please, do not bank on this "flow." The company lied to us when they were AMR and afterward, everyone said that AAG wouldn't lie to us and that "they do what they say they are going to do." BS. Envoy is a predatory company and will say anything or put on any front necessary to meet their needs at the time.

After two plus years at Spirit now, I can say my world is 180 degrees different. Spirit has its problems no doubt. Lower than average pay is one. However, the lower than average pay at Spirit blows Envoy pay away. The end of my second full year at Spirit had me at 85k. That's about what a 10 year Envoy Captain makes. In addition, Spirit matches dollar for dollar up to 9% of my 401 contribution. That also blows away the top Envoy Captain match.

On top of that, I am treated fairly well. There is nothing like the punitive atmosphere here in any way, shape or form. If you are a regular line pilot and just want to come in and do your job and then go home, you will be very pleased.

Sick? No problem. No BS checking in with the CP or notes, etc. Just show up for your next trip or call and say you are still sick. Whatever the case.

My point here is. Whether it be Spirit, Frontier, Virgin, Jetblue or yes, even Allegiant. I would strongly consider making a move to one of these carriers as your pay and QOL will drastically improve. Can't speak 100% to the QOL at Allegiant but....it's your call. Not a bad place to hang out short term if you are waiting for Delta or United to call. If Spirit can get a reasonable contract, it's really not a bad place to hang out till retirement. Just my .02 there though.

The only thing that will get Envoy's attention is that their aircraft begin to sit idle or take delays due to lack of crew. Obviously that isn't much of a problem now but as time progresses, well, if enough people actually leave then they could potentially have a problem.

If you are close to flow, as in a 99-00 hire I might consider staying put as you will likely make it out of there. All bets are off on anyone after that. Again, just my opinion.

 

There are flows in class today from last year's selection.

The January selections got class dates assigned in March. That's about 6 weeks delay.

Let's ignore the gap between selection and actual class date and assume 100 actually make it into an AA class before May. Let's also make the wildly conservative assumption that only 100 AA pilots undefer and return. That's just over a month's worth of classes filled at 60/mo. Add the slowdown in July and December to the AA training department. Out of 12 months, we get approximately 9 to transfer 30 a month.

9 x 30 is 270.

Because we're metering, the 50% value of the class is invalid, therefore we cannot consider 50% of 750.

We've already stipulated an actual transfer of 100.

170 more flows for the rest of the year.

Unless you're telling us that the metering is going to be stopped? I haven't heard any noises that the AA and ENY training centers are ramping up to meet the theoretical number of 750 newhires and the required upgrades.

 

Where's that Cro-magnon man Winkley hiding at?

 

[QUOTE=cr700;2071473]So what if I'm at a desk most of the time? I've got no problem admitting it. I'm still on the seniority list and that's what matters.

You have a massive disconnect with your pilots. Until you routinely do 12 and 13 hour 4 day trips with dead heads, 3 hour sits, and lost days in Laredo, TX that disconnect will be there. Until crew scheduling tells you its mandatory to take an FDP extension or get hit with a MA, or until you have to spend 10 hours a month auditing your pay check and then arguing with pay comp, that disconnect will be there.

Where's the bastion of support that I used to see on here in this thread?

The support left when LAX, SJU, MIA, LGA, JFK, all closed. The support left when we delivered our first CRJ 700 to PSA. The support left when we watched RAH be the first American Regional to operate the 175. The support left when management began pre-assigning RAP 1s. The support left when we lost our High B crew room to Mesa. The support left when we watched Express Jet operate its first American 145 that with a tail number that ends in AE. The support ended after 40% of our pilots got awarded a reserve line. The support left after we were all forced to give up vacation, increase our medical costs, and take pay cuts to "secure" our future. The support ended when 7 year FO's received emails from the company about how someone hired here today will upgrade in 30 months.

In fact, that's why I finally started posting instead of just reading. To turn away these unwarranted incendiary attacks on Envoy. Do you want to flow or not?

We all want to flow. Do you want us to flow? I don't think management wants us to flow. They decided to meter the flow while also offering zero time lines to Captains. The message here is we don't need you this month, but MAYBE next month we will.

Well, we do need new hires. That's a fact.

So does every other regional.


We are getting them like everyone else,

No we are not. Mesas last class, 33. Skywest's last class, 64. Commut Air's last class, 21. Of the 6 from Envoys last class, which remember, we need 30 a month to meet Ric Wilsons model, 3 will be gone within 12 months.

Why turn them away with baseless accusations about what YOU perceive to be the truth here.

Because the truth is what it is. The reality is, it is NOT a good time to be at Envoy, nor has it been since 2011. We have not had one single piece of good news in over a decade. We have lost more than half of our fleet, closed 5 of our 7 bases, and now have a rock bottom contract we are stuck with. The irony in all of this is the only positive selling feature this company has is "Not having to work her anymore thanks to the flow." The bottom line is this if you want new hires you will get them from either throwing $ at them or increasing the movement of this place. Management has elected to do neither. When a new hire that lives in DFW can go to Mesa and be a captain in 18 months or a Captain at Envoy in 7 to 8 years, which will he choose? And don't tell us the upgrade times are dropping soon, show us with a massive vacancy bid. When a a new hire that lives in New York can go to Endeavor and make $53,000 his first year vs $30,000 at Envoy, and have to commute to DFW or ORD, which do you think he will choose.

The facts is, there is no other regional that has the type of flow that Envoy has.

PSA has a flow, PDT has a flow, we have a flow. Our last class had 6, PSA had 3. Why? Because flow alone is not enough to attract new hires. This will become very clear to management with each passing mostly empty chair new hire class.

We are far and away at the top of regionals in terms of percentages of flowing pilots. How is that a bad thing?

Its a great thing, so why meter it?

Add to that the upgrade time that will be dropping rapidly very soon.

Kind of like how in November there was an email that came out saying management has elected to go with "smaller but more regular" vacancy bids. Where is the bid? May of 2015 was the 2.5 year upgrade claim. Why don't you tell the world how many have upgraded in the last 10 months.

The 2.5/6 is not just some baloney numbers pulled out of the air.

It is when its based on hiring 30 a month.

These were calculated over a period of time by Envoy management and it's shown already that it's going to work.

Metering the flow, running one bid every 5 to 6 months for 20 new captains will not get it done.

These are all based on projections that were created between Envoy and AAG. And that's just with the flow working as we speak. How about that fact?

The fact is the flow is being metered now, when it shouldn't be. The flow is turning into a trickle this summer, when it shouldn't be.

Upgrades are about to drop rapidly.

Again, show us the bid.

Forget about your Charlie Bucket. That's union propaganda. I'm not saying overall that the union is bad, it's just that they have their own agenda when running THEIR numbers.

THEIR numbers seem to be a little closer to reality. First Officer Bucket is still commuting to ORD to sit pre assigned rap 1's on his first day. He seems to have a very long up hill road to travel in order to upgrade in the next 20 months.

As for work rules. Yes, Envoy has nearly the best in the regional industry.

False!
Trip rigs? Nope
Duty Rigs? Nope
Golden Days? Nope
SAP? Nope
CDOs? Nope
Paid for clearing customs? Nope
Long Call Reserve? Nope
Guaranteed release times on last day? Nope

Maybe the reserve rules could use some tweaking, but overall I can't see what the problem is regarding complaining about the work rules in general.

That's because its been a while since you have spent 4 full days away from home to sit Airport Standby, commuting in on Day 0 and heading home on day 5.

As for the schedules. The schedules are given to us by AAG and we have to make them work. It's really a lack of mid day flying that contributes to many of the lines built in the current fashion. It's just where we are right now. They may not be perfect, but seriously, are they really that bad?

They are horrible! We are the ONLY regional carrier that does not offer 1 Day trips, 2 day trips, a significant amount of 3 day trips. We also have the lowest day value, trip value, and line values in the industry. We have no CDO's, we also have no variety. And it seems the new norm is 4 on 2 off. I have a friend hired at Skywest two months before I was hired at Eagle. He enjoys 3 day trips that credit 22 hours, and a schedule of 3 on 4 off. I enjoy 16 hour 4 day trips that start early on day 1, have 3 dead heads in the sequence, have a 30 hour overnight, and finish late afternoon on day 4. I get 2 days off and get to do it again. I get we don't have mid day flying, but the schedules are far worse than they need to be.

It's a fact that every month someone will post that the schedules are the worst they've ever seen. Give me a break. As far as the non commutable ends of the trip, you have company paid hotels!

Almost all the trips are non commutable. With FIVE 4 day trips in many of the lines, the potential is there for needing 10 hotels, the company doesn't even cover HALF what some pilots need.

What more do you want?

How about not having to wait 90 minutes for CS to fulfill the RF 200 request.

Room service delivered to your room on the company dime?

Most of the hotels we now stay at now don't offer room service.

I would stress again......patience. It's taking some time for the overall company plan to come together but Envoy is a major player and is already a great regional with a robust flow, but as things continue to improve, will be THE premier regional. This, along with the flow is what will bring new hires to our doors.

Why can't you share what the company plan is? The silence makes us all doubt there even is a major long term plan for Envoy other than 40 EJets. Patience, I have heard that word be used by management now month in and month out. We are always "Just right around the corner from more good news." "Next month the schedules will get better." "Next month we should have a vacancy bid." "Next month we might here about more options." The lack of news is underwhelming. Even the GOOD news we do hear is incredibly underwhelming........ "We are giving our airplanes away at a much slower rate!!!! HURRAH!!!"

Bottom line is this, want this place to turn around, want new hires? Start with good news and back it up with real action.

 

[QUOTE=3inthegreen;2071694]Hear, hear! Good post, I salute you

 

Agreed.... ^^^^^ How can you argue against or deny any of this?? This is why people aren't coming to Envoy.

 

Don't forget, while skywest runs 22 hr 3 days, we run 17-18 hr 4 days.

 

There are much better choices.

Skywest- better pay, rules bases, treatment

Endeavor- way more money

Republic - somehow better, more movement, better rules, and would gain all our flying if they could staff it. Thankfully the MANAGEMENT there screws up enough

PSA - would you want to work with a bunch of wet noodle pilots. But even then still better then envoy.

Piedmont - better then us


You get the point ENVOY sucks, and your choice of bases suck.

ORD - trips suck, commute sucks. Living can be dangerous most commuters have pads or had pads along the blue line, the blue line is the ghetto line until you get to the city, then no new hire can afford the city.

DFW- uggggghhh, need to get yourself a car to have a pad there, and then it's still Dallas

 

Rick Wilson cannot get anyone to work for Envoy because he is holding the pilot group hostage. He sees it as metering, but lets just call it for what it is, Hostage taking.

He has an excess of current pilots, he is using low time lines to keep them busy, he is using part or zero time lines to keep enough low time lines around to keep them busy, and he has the largest pool of reserve pilots out of ANY other airline. Yet he meters the flow to the minimum allowed, breaking the Eagle pilots contract in the process by allowing them to make up less than 50% of the AA new hire classes. Why the Eagle MEC hasn't filed a grievance about this yet I don't know. I guess they are still in hostage negotiations.