New Envoy Information
02-20-2016 | 08:44 AM
#1321
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
As shaky as we have been the other WO's are on shakier ground than us. PDT has had much difficulty with their EMB program and PSA is having serious issues recently with recruiting. From my viewpoint all three are hurting if not in more serious trouble but my opinion doesn't count. AAG's does and it's their business to run as they choose.
02-20-2016 | 08:48 AM
#1322
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 569
Likes: 0
Let me be really honest with all of the Envoy pilots here. Bashing the company is going to do nothing, zero, to help you out of the "situation you feel you are in." Helping your understanding of the company's reasoning and calculations by explaining it in detail is something I've tried to do here but it appears to have gone over your heads. Keep in mind that I've flown the line and understand what it means to be a line pilot so I've tried to explain it in a way that's easily understood.
For those of you interested in coming to Envoy, I'll be happy to answer your questions here. Just ignore the trolls.
For those of you interested in coming to Envoy, I'll be happy to answer your questions here. Just ignore the trolls.
02-20-2016 | 08:57 AM
#1323
Does NOT get weekends off
Joined: Jul 2007
Posts: 1,631
Likes: 0
From: ERJ - 145
I'll disagree with you. First, we have a new aircraft coming online which will eventually be the backbone of our airline. Comair had no such situation. Second we have the new ETC building. Comair was downsizing their real estate before shutdown. Third AAG has been relying heavily on envoy middle management to produce programs that are then rolled out the two other WO's.(EFB program, ADS B, recruiting and the cadet program and several others). Basically our guys do the heavy lifting then present it to AAG and they then turn it over to PDT and PSA to implement. Comair was not leading any other WO's.
As shaky as we have been the other WO's are on shakier ground than us. PDT has had much difficulty with their EMB program and PSA is having serious issues recently with recruiting. From my viewpoint all three are hurting if not in more serious trouble but my opinion doesn't count. AAG's does and it's their business to run as they choose.
As shaky as we have been the other WO's are on shakier ground than us. PDT has had much difficulty with their EMB program and PSA is having serious issues recently with recruiting. From my viewpoint all three are hurting if not in more serious trouble but my opinion doesn't count. AAG's does and it's their business to run as they choose.
A new training center? If anything that makes it even easier to sell or transfer the assets to another carrier now that it is not in the AA flight academy.
I'm not saying comair will happen. In fact I seriously doubt it. Your argument is just flawed.
02-20-2016 | 08:57 AM
#1324
Banned
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 718
Likes: 9
Let me be really honest with all of the Envoy pilots here. Bashing the company is going to do nothing, zero, to help you out of the "situation you feel you are in." Helping your understanding of the company's reasoning and calculations by explaining it in detail is something I've tried to do here but it appears to have gone over your heads. Keep in mind that I've flown the line and understand what it means to be a line pilot so I've tried to explain it in a way that's easily understood.
You can get on board and ride Envoy right into AA or you can bash and be miserable. Better yet, why not make that lateral move to JetBlue, Spirit or Virgin. If you are that big a detractor, we don't need you here. We WILL continue to get new hires. There are many out there who would be happy to embark on their AA career at Envoy.
For those of you interested in coming to Envoy, I'll be happy to answer your questions here. Just ignore the trolls.
You can get on board and ride Envoy right into AA or you can bash and be miserable. Better yet, why not make that lateral move to JetBlue, Spirit or Virgin. If you are that big a detractor, we don't need you here. We WILL continue to get new hires. There are many out there who would be happy to embark on their AA career at Envoy.
For those of you interested in coming to Envoy, I'll be happy to answer your questions here. Just ignore the trolls.
02-20-2016 | 08:59 AM
#1325
Banned
Joined: Dec 2014
Posts: 718
Likes: 9
[QUOTE=3inthegreen;2071694]
Again CRJ 700, lets see some facts to counter these facts.
So what if I'm at a desk most of the time? I've got no problem admitting it. I'm still on the seniority list and that's what matters.
You have a massive disconnect with your pilots. Until you routinely do 12 and 13 hour 4 day trips with dead heads, 3 hour sits, and lost days in Laredo, TX that disconnect will be there. Until crew scheduling tells you its mandatory to take an FDP extension or get hit with a MA, or until you have to spend 10 hours a month auditing your pay check and then arguing with pay comp, that disconnect will be there.
Where's the bastion of support that I used to see on here in this thread?
The support left when LAX, SJU, MIA, LGA, JFK, all closed. The support left when we delivered our first CRJ 700 to PSA. The support left when we watched RAH be the first American Regional to operate the 175. The support left when management began pre-assigning RAP 1s. The support left when we lost our High B crew room to Mesa. The support left when we watched Express Jet operate its first American 145 that with a tail number that ends in AE. The support ended after 40% of our pilots got awarded a reserve line. The support left after we were all forced to give up vacation, increase our medical costs, and take pay cuts to "secure" our future. The support ended when 7 year FO's received emails from the company about how someone hired here today will upgrade in 30 months.
In fact, that's why I finally started posting instead of just reading. To turn away these unwarranted incendiary attacks on Envoy. Do you want to flow or not?
We all want to flow. Do you want us to flow? I don't think management wants us to flow. They decided to meter the flow while also offering zero time lines to Captains. The message here is we don't need you this month, but MAYBE next month we will.
Well, we do need new hires. That's a fact.
So does every other regional.
We are getting them like everyone else,
No we are not. Mesas last class, 33. Skywest's last class, 64. Commut Air's last class, 21. Of the 6 from Envoys last class, which remember, we need 30 a month to meet Ric Wilsons model, 3 will be gone within 12 months.
Why turn them away with baseless accusations about what YOU perceive to be the truth here.
Because the truth is what it is. The reality is, it is NOT a good time to be at Envoy, nor has it been since 2011. We have not had one single piece of good news in over a decade. We have lost more than half of our fleet, closed 5 of our 7 bases, and now have a rock bottom contract we are stuck with. The irony in all of this is the only positive selling feature this company has is "Not having to work her anymore thanks to the flow." The bottom line is this if you want new hires you will get them from either throwing $ at them or increasing the movement of this place. Management has elected to do neither. When a new hire that lives in DFW can go to Mesa and be a captain in 18 months or a Captain at Envoy in 7 to 8 years, which will he choose? And don't tell us the upgrade times are dropping soon, show us with a massive vacancy bid. When a a new hire that lives in New York can go to Endeavor and make $53,000 his first year vs $30,000 at Envoy, and have to commute to DFW or ORD, which do you think he will choose.
The facts is, there is no other regional that has the type of flow that Envoy has.
PSA has a flow, PDT has a flow, we have a flow. Our last class had 6, PSA had 3. Why? Because flow alone is not enough to attract new hires. This will become very clear to management with each passing mostly empty chair new hire class.
We are far and away at the top of regionals in terms of percentages of flowing pilots. How is that a bad thing?
Its a great thing, so why meter it?
Add to that the upgrade time that will be dropping rapidly very soon.
Kind of like how in November there was an email that came out saying management has elected to go with "smaller but more regular" vacancy bids. Where is the bid? May of 2015 was the 2.5 year upgrade claim. Why don't you tell the world how many have upgraded in the last 10 months.
The 2.5/6 is not just some baloney numbers pulled out of the air.
It is when its based on hiring 30 a month.
These were calculated over a period of time by Envoy management and it's shown already that it's going to work.
Metering the flow, running one bid every 5 to 6 months for 20 new captains will not get it done.
These are all based on projections that were created between Envoy and AAG. And that's just with the flow working as we speak. How about that fact?
The fact is the flow is being metered now, when it shouldn't be. The flow is turning into a trickle this summer, when it shouldn't be.
Upgrades are about to drop rapidly.
Again, show us the bid.
Forget about your Charlie Bucket. That's union propaganda. I'm not saying overall that the union is bad, it's just that they have their own agenda when running THEIR numbers.
THEIR numbers seem to be a little closer to reality. First Officer Bucket is still commuting to ORD to sit pre assigned rap 1's on his first day. He seems to have a very long up hill road to travel in order to upgrade in the next 20 months.
As for work rules. Yes, Envoy has nearly the best in the regional industry.
False!
Trip rigs? Nope
Duty Rigs? Nope
Golden Days? Nope
SAP? Nope
CDOs? Nope
Paid for clearing customs? Nope
Long Call Reserve? Nope
Guaranteed release times on last day? Nope
Maybe the reserve rules could use some tweaking, but overall I can't see what the problem is regarding complaining about the work rules in general.
That's because its been a while since you have spent 4 full days away from home to sit Airport Standby, commuting in on Day 0 and heading home on day 5.
As for the schedules. The schedules are given to us by AAG and we have to make them work. It's really a lack of mid day flying that contributes to many of the lines built in the current fashion. It's just where we are right now. They may not be perfect, but seriously, are they really that bad?
They are horrible! We are the ONLY regional carrier that does not offer 1 Day trips, 2 day trips, a significant amount of 3 day trips. We also have the lowest day value, trip value, and line values in the industry. We have no CDO's, we also have no variety. And it seems the new norm is 4 on 2 off. I have a friend hired at Skywest two months before I was hired at Eagle. He enjoys 3 day trips that credit 22 hours, and a schedule of 3 on 4 off. I enjoy 16 hour 4 day trips that start early on day 1, have 3 dead heads in the sequence, have a 30 hour overnight, and finish late afternoon on day 4. I get 2 days off and get to do it again. I get we don't have mid day flying, but the schedules are far worse than they need to be.
It's a fact that every month someone will post that the schedules are the worst they've ever seen. Give me a break. As far as the non commutable ends of the trip, you have company paid hotels!
Almost all the trips are non commutable. With FIVE 4 day trips in many of the lines, the potential is there for needing 10 hotels, the company doesn't even cover HALF what some pilots need.
What more do you want?
How about not having to wait 90 minutes for CS to fulfill the RF 200 request.
Room service delivered to your room on the company dime?
Most of the hotels we now stay at now don't offer room service.
I would stress again......patience. It's taking some time for the overall company plan to come together but Envoy is a major player and is already a great regional with a robust flow, but as things continue to improve, will be THE premier regional. This, along with the flow is what will bring new hires to our doors.
Why can't you share what the company plan is? The silence makes us all doubt there even is a major long term plan for Envoy other than 40 EJets. Patience, I have heard that word be used by management now month in and month out. We are always "Just right around the corner from more good news." "Next month the schedules will get better." "Next month we should have a vacancy bid." "Next month we might here about more options." The lack of news is underwhelming. Even the GOOD news we do hear is incredibly underwhelming........ "We are giving our airplanes away at a much slower rate!!!! HURRAH!!!"
Bottom line is this, want this place to turn around, want new hires? Start with good news and back it up with real action.
You have a massive disconnect with your pilots. Until you routinely do 12 and 13 hour 4 day trips with dead heads, 3 hour sits, and lost days in Laredo, TX that disconnect will be there. Until crew scheduling tells you its mandatory to take an FDP extension or get hit with a MA, or until you have to spend 10 hours a month auditing your pay check and then arguing with pay comp, that disconnect will be there.
Where's the bastion of support that I used to see on here in this thread?
The support left when LAX, SJU, MIA, LGA, JFK, all closed. The support left when we delivered our first CRJ 700 to PSA. The support left when we watched RAH be the first American Regional to operate the 175. The support left when management began pre-assigning RAP 1s. The support left when we lost our High B crew room to Mesa. The support left when we watched Express Jet operate its first American 145 that with a tail number that ends in AE. The support ended after 40% of our pilots got awarded a reserve line. The support left after we were all forced to give up vacation, increase our medical costs, and take pay cuts to "secure" our future. The support ended when 7 year FO's received emails from the company about how someone hired here today will upgrade in 30 months.
In fact, that's why I finally started posting instead of just reading. To turn away these unwarranted incendiary attacks on Envoy. Do you want to flow or not?
We all want to flow. Do you want us to flow? I don't think management wants us to flow. They decided to meter the flow while also offering zero time lines to Captains. The message here is we don't need you this month, but MAYBE next month we will.
Well, we do need new hires. That's a fact.
So does every other regional.
We are getting them like everyone else,
No we are not. Mesas last class, 33. Skywest's last class, 64. Commut Air's last class, 21. Of the 6 from Envoys last class, which remember, we need 30 a month to meet Ric Wilsons model, 3 will be gone within 12 months.
Why turn them away with baseless accusations about what YOU perceive to be the truth here.
Because the truth is what it is. The reality is, it is NOT a good time to be at Envoy, nor has it been since 2011. We have not had one single piece of good news in over a decade. We have lost more than half of our fleet, closed 5 of our 7 bases, and now have a rock bottom contract we are stuck with. The irony in all of this is the only positive selling feature this company has is "Not having to work her anymore thanks to the flow." The bottom line is this if you want new hires you will get them from either throwing $ at them or increasing the movement of this place. Management has elected to do neither. When a new hire that lives in DFW can go to Mesa and be a captain in 18 months or a Captain at Envoy in 7 to 8 years, which will he choose? And don't tell us the upgrade times are dropping soon, show us with a massive vacancy bid. When a a new hire that lives in New York can go to Endeavor and make $53,000 his first year vs $30,000 at Envoy, and have to commute to DFW or ORD, which do you think he will choose.
The facts is, there is no other regional that has the type of flow that Envoy has.
PSA has a flow, PDT has a flow, we have a flow. Our last class had 6, PSA had 3. Why? Because flow alone is not enough to attract new hires. This will become very clear to management with each passing mostly empty chair new hire class.
We are far and away at the top of regionals in terms of percentages of flowing pilots. How is that a bad thing?
Its a great thing, so why meter it?
Add to that the upgrade time that will be dropping rapidly very soon.
Kind of like how in November there was an email that came out saying management has elected to go with "smaller but more regular" vacancy bids. Where is the bid? May of 2015 was the 2.5 year upgrade claim. Why don't you tell the world how many have upgraded in the last 10 months.
The 2.5/6 is not just some baloney numbers pulled out of the air.
It is when its based on hiring 30 a month.
These were calculated over a period of time by Envoy management and it's shown already that it's going to work.
Metering the flow, running one bid every 5 to 6 months for 20 new captains will not get it done.
These are all based on projections that were created between Envoy and AAG. And that's just with the flow working as we speak. How about that fact?
The fact is the flow is being metered now, when it shouldn't be. The flow is turning into a trickle this summer, when it shouldn't be.
Upgrades are about to drop rapidly.
Again, show us the bid.
Forget about your Charlie Bucket. That's union propaganda. I'm not saying overall that the union is bad, it's just that they have their own agenda when running THEIR numbers.
THEIR numbers seem to be a little closer to reality. First Officer Bucket is still commuting to ORD to sit pre assigned rap 1's on his first day. He seems to have a very long up hill road to travel in order to upgrade in the next 20 months.
As for work rules. Yes, Envoy has nearly the best in the regional industry.
False!
Trip rigs? Nope
Duty Rigs? Nope
Golden Days? Nope
SAP? Nope
CDOs? Nope
Paid for clearing customs? Nope
Long Call Reserve? Nope
Guaranteed release times on last day? Nope
Maybe the reserve rules could use some tweaking, but overall I can't see what the problem is regarding complaining about the work rules in general.
That's because its been a while since you have spent 4 full days away from home to sit Airport Standby, commuting in on Day 0 and heading home on day 5.
As for the schedules. The schedules are given to us by AAG and we have to make them work. It's really a lack of mid day flying that contributes to many of the lines built in the current fashion. It's just where we are right now. They may not be perfect, but seriously, are they really that bad?
They are horrible! We are the ONLY regional carrier that does not offer 1 Day trips, 2 day trips, a significant amount of 3 day trips. We also have the lowest day value, trip value, and line values in the industry. We have no CDO's, we also have no variety. And it seems the new norm is 4 on 2 off. I have a friend hired at Skywest two months before I was hired at Eagle. He enjoys 3 day trips that credit 22 hours, and a schedule of 3 on 4 off. I enjoy 16 hour 4 day trips that start early on day 1, have 3 dead heads in the sequence, have a 30 hour overnight, and finish late afternoon on day 4. I get 2 days off and get to do it again. I get we don't have mid day flying, but the schedules are far worse than they need to be.
It's a fact that every month someone will post that the schedules are the worst they've ever seen. Give me a break. As far as the non commutable ends of the trip, you have company paid hotels!
Almost all the trips are non commutable. With FIVE 4 day trips in many of the lines, the potential is there for needing 10 hotels, the company doesn't even cover HALF what some pilots need.
What more do you want?
How about not having to wait 90 minutes for CS to fulfill the RF 200 request.
Room service delivered to your room on the company dime?
Most of the hotels we now stay at now don't offer room service.
I would stress again......patience. It's taking some time for the overall company plan to come together but Envoy is a major player and is already a great regional with a robust flow, but as things continue to improve, will be THE premier regional. This, along with the flow is what will bring new hires to our doors.
Why can't you share what the company plan is? The silence makes us all doubt there even is a major long term plan for Envoy other than 40 EJets. Patience, I have heard that word be used by management now month in and month out. We are always "Just right around the corner from more good news." "Next month the schedules will get better." "Next month we should have a vacancy bid." "Next month we might here about more options." The lack of news is underwhelming. Even the GOOD news we do hear is incredibly underwhelming........ "We are giving our airplanes away at a much slower rate!!!! HURRAH!!!"
Bottom line is this, want this place to turn around, want new hires? Start with good news and back it up with real action.
02-20-2016 | 09:09 AM
#1326
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2015
Posts: 667
Likes: 0
I'll disagree with you. First, we have a new aircraft coming online which will eventually be the backbone of our airline. Comair had no such situation. Second we have the new ETC building. Comair was downsizing their real estate before shutdown. Third AAG has been relying heavily on envoy middle management to produce programs that are then rolled out the two other WO's.(EFB program, ADS B, recruiting and the cadet program and several others). Basically our guys do the heavy lifting then present it to AAG and they then turn it over to PDT and PSA to implement. Comair was not leading any other WO's.
As shaky as we have been the other WO's are on shakier ground than us. PDT has had much difficulty with their EMB program and PSA is having serious issues recently with recruiting. From my viewpoint all three are hurting if not in more serious trouble but my opinion doesn't count. AAG's does and it's their business to run as they choose.
As shaky as we have been the other WO's are on shakier ground than us. PDT has had much difficulty with their EMB program and PSA is having serious issues recently with recruiting. From my viewpoint all three are hurting if not in more serious trouble but my opinion doesn't count. AAG's does and it's their business to run as they choose.
02-20-2016 | 10:42 AM
#1329
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 501
Likes: 0
From: A320 FO
"Bashing" Envoy isn't my goal. I'd love to promote it, but the fact is the claims made simply don't hold water. On top of that it's obvious most there feel they are being played for idiots, at least that's the message I get. You're asking people to disregard opinions based on factual information and blindly believe optimistic promises from people who have arguably established an abysmal record of trust and that simply isn't realistic.
Sure, Envoy will continue to get some pilots, but if they are hanging their hats on these promises and projections, I think it clear they will be as disappointed in the future as the current crop are in the present. You have the power to maximize Envoy's future, but a complete philosophical change regarding your pilots as assets instead of manipulatable liabilities is required.
I think you're getting to the fork in the road of either stepping up to the plate or leaving the ballpark for use by more successful teams.
Sure, Envoy will continue to get some pilots, but if they are hanging their hats on these promises and projections, I think it clear they will be as disappointed in the future as the current crop are in the present. You have the power to maximize Envoy's future, but a complete philosophical change regarding your pilots as assets instead of manipulatable liabilities is required.
I think you're getting to the fork in the road of either stepping up to the plate or leaving the ballpark for use by more successful teams.
Agreed. Maybe if management made their plans and actually did what they said they were going to do, I believe our tones would be singing a different tune.
I find it humorous that people like CR700 just expect the pilots here to be okay with what has happened. Forget about the pilots who have waited 16+ years to flow. Who cares they are only 8 days at home. Who cares about the schedules. Never mind the professionals who bring the customers home safe and the ones who are away from home for every single holiday in the year. Is it just me or is Ric's thank you letters starting to become a thorn in our sides.
You want to really be thankful, Ric? Then do something the pilots would really appreciate.
<Mic drop>
02-20-2016 | 11:02 AM
#1330
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 101
Likes: 0
I'm just trying to help answer the new hires question on here a few pages back. He was concerned about the viability of the 2 1/2 year upgrade and 6 year flow.
I'm just trying to allay those concerns. For some detractors, Envoy will never be good enough. That is until they are sitting in the right seat of some contractor regional as they see their Envoy buddies moving over to AA one after the other.
It's been beat to death here but the math and projections put out by the company actually work. Do you think they would actually advertise a 2 1/2 year upgrade and 6 year flow to AA if it weren't actually the case.
It's also my understanding that the lack of new hires is simply a case of many not making it through the interview. It's an AA interview after all as it will be your last interview before you retire. Obviously, the new hire poster a few pages back is AA material so he need not worry.
I would say to the new hire. Big things are happening here and it's moving fast. Be glad that you got on when you did as your ticket to an AA jet in under 6 years has already been punched.
I'm just trying to allay those concerns. For some detractors, Envoy will never be good enough. That is until they are sitting in the right seat of some contractor regional as they see their Envoy buddies moving over to AA one after the other.
It's been beat to death here but the math and projections put out by the company actually work. Do you think they would actually advertise a 2 1/2 year upgrade and 6 year flow to AA if it weren't actually the case.
It's also my understanding that the lack of new hires is simply a case of many not making it through the interview. It's an AA interview after all as it will be your last interview before you retire. Obviously, the new hire poster a few pages back is AA material so he need not worry.
I would say to the new hire. Big things are happening here and it's moving fast. Be glad that you got on when you did as your ticket to an AA jet in under 6 years has already been punched.
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