New Envoy Information
03-04-2016, 04:57 AM
#1681
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Originally Posted by Smutter
I don't think the retention part of these bonuses will work, people are over the Pedro and Dic regime. If they get canned and the following changes happen then maybe.
- schedules become more then min days off
- credit of those schedules become more then min
- management stands down from its hostile stance against us
- admit 2.5/6 is a lie
- fix payroll problems
- fix reserve
- HONOR OUR CONTRACT
No one wants to stay here because of the stance the two clowns have taken. A check every three months will absolutely not help the grind these two make it to work here. I get new hires will at least consider envoy, but hopefully stay away. In reality though, these people still go to republic and Mesa before they come here(at least I hope)
- schedules become more then min days off
- credit of those schedules become more then min
- management stands down from its hostile stance against us
- admit 2.5/6 is a lie
- fix payroll problems
- fix reserve
- HONOR OUR CONTRACT
No one wants to stay here because of the stance the two clowns have taken. A check every three months will absolutely not help the grind these two make it to work here. I get new hires will at least consider envoy, but hopefully stay away. In reality though, these people still go to republic and Mesa before they come here(at least I hope)
All Envoy ALPA did was give them the most tools possible to do that right on managements schedule, which offers little benefit to the pilot GROUP. This MEC obviously can always be counted on to be moved in a certain direction, even if they don't understand the ramifications of the direction they are going.
03-04-2016, 06:18 AM
#1683
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2014
Position: Feito no Brasil, CA
Posts: 833
New Envoy Information
Of some interest:
We posted vacancies for internal job applications. The positions they are looking for are EMB 145 sim instructors, EMB 145 and CRJ line check and IOE pilots.
They are either replacing people who have left or are buffering up for some upgrades. I mention some may have left, but the schoolhouse is generally pretty careful about not placing people in these positions who will be flowing soon. Just a guess, but I suspect it's for some upgrades. It takes a while to get the instructors up to speed (months), so no matter what they are for it's not going to be sudden change in our current upgrade DOH.
They keep putting out those pie in the sky numbers of AA needing 120 flows in the first 120 days and 300+ total from ENY this year, but our schoolhouse isn't making the frame to hang that pretty picture in yet.
We posted vacancies for internal job applications. The positions they are looking for are EMB 145 sim instructors, EMB 145 and CRJ line check and IOE pilots.
They are either replacing people who have left or are buffering up for some upgrades. I mention some may have left, but the schoolhouse is generally pretty careful about not placing people in these positions who will be flowing soon. Just a guess, but I suspect it's for some upgrades. It takes a while to get the instructors up to speed (months), so no matter what they are for it's not going to be sudden change in our current upgrade DOH.
They keep putting out those pie in the sky numbers of AA needing 120 flows in the first 120 days and 300+ total from ENY this year, but our schoolhouse isn't making the frame to hang that pretty picture in yet.
03-04-2016, 06:23 AM
#1684
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2014
Posts: 569
Another MEC group grievance was filed today over improper hotel procedure in CID. Company unilaterally imposing its will AGAIN with zero input from pilots. Violating the contract again. Does management really wonder why they have a recruiting and retention problem?
03-04-2016, 07:43 AM
#1685
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
Originally Posted by eaglefly
It's amusing to listen to you talk about "constantly shifting 30,000 foot views" in an effort to justify the sudden and frequent let downs that are thrown at Envoy pilots to deflect responsibility for negative developments, yet at the same time trumpet specifics and certainties when it comes to the dispensement of attractive but questionable carrots when it serves the needs of those other then the pilots. Let's face it, the emotional yo-yo existence that is fostered upon Envoy pilots is a chosen tactic even if many of them bear the responsibility for falling for it again and again.
As for the "mind blowing" feeling watching "super qualified" pilots leave Envoy, you do realize that for many, the opinion is that anyone who does choose to stay at Envoy and flow is usually seen as a toothless knuckle-dragger with a closet full of skeletons and is flowing because they couldn't get hired elsewhere. Perhaps in the future, many of the flows to AA can have annual barbecues to compare skeletons ?
As for the "mind blowing" feeling watching "super qualified" pilots leave Envoy, you do realize that for many, the opinion is that anyone who does choose to stay at Envoy and flow is usually seen as a toothless knuckle-dragger with a closet full of skeletons and is flowing because they couldn't get hired elsewhere. Perhaps in the future, many of the flows to AA can have annual barbecues to compare skeletons ?
The "shifting views from 30,000 feet" are just that. You may not have noticed but the regional landscape has shifted significantly over the past 5 years. It's apparent with the applicants we are getting and why we are still turning them away. In the end, we are hiring an AA pilot and quite a few applicants as of late haven't met that standard.
What happens when the environment changes is that the company may move to an alternate version of the same plan or a different one altogether. In Envoy's case, it's been a mix. Believe it or not, a cost has been put on the flow and when the numbers come out at the end, an Envoy pilot is compensated above what a Compass and Republic pilot are just to name two. And this is with Republic's new contract as well. I would think anyone with any sense would place Envoy several rungs higher on the ladder when just looking at the two carriers above alone not even considering pay.
How is that possible you ask? Take a look at an Envoy pilot's career vs. a Republic pilot's career from Day one of Indoc. The overall compensation curve is slightly lower on the front end of the Envoy pilot up until close to the 6 year mark when said pilot flows to American Airlines. Then, the curve skyrockets in favor of the Envoy/AA pilot. AAG is committed to providing a lifetime "cradle to grave" career path for pilots hired at Envoy. When you equate that with a Republic pilot who may spend up to 8 years or longer beyond when the Envoy pilot flows at said company just trying to get to their next step, you may begin to understand how this costing formula makes sense. This particular costing metric is the driver on how the Envoy pilot literally blows the Republic pilot away on the earnings scale.
I would suggest that all Envoy pilots take a look at this and compare yourselves appropriately. We've already received outstanding news this week from the company. I fully expect to hear more good news very soon. Yes, it's still "mind blowing" to me why ANY Envoy pilot would leave when the opportunity of a lifetime has already been given to you.
03-04-2016, 08:00 AM
#1687
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2015
Posts: 472
Originally Posted by cr700
Ordinarily I wouldn't bother responding to you since you don't even work here. But you bring up an interesting point that I think is crucial for current Envoy pilots as well as those considering Envoy.
The "shifting views from 30,000 feet" are just that. You may not have noticed but the regional landscape has shifted significantly over the past 5 years. It's apparent with the applicants we are getting and why we are still turning them away. In the end, we are hiring an AA pilot and quite a few applicants as of late haven't met that standard.
What happens when the environment changes is that the company may move to an alternate version of the same plan or a different one altogether. In Envoy's case, it's been a mix. Believe it or not, a cost has been put on the flow and when the numbers come out at the end, an Envoy pilot is compensated above what a Compass and Republic pilot are just to name two. And this is with Republic's new contract as well. I would think anyone with any sense would place Envoy several rungs higher on the ladder when just looking at the two carriers above alone not even considering pay.
How is that possible you ask? Take a look at an Envoy pilot's career vs. a Republic pilot's career from Day one of Indoc. The overall compensation curve is slightly lower on the front end of the Envoy pilot up until close to the 6 year mark when said pilot flows to American Airlines. Then, the curve skyrockets in favor of the Envoy/AA pilot. AAG is committed to providing a lifetime "cradle to grave" career path for pilots hired at Envoy. When you equate that with a Republic pilot who may spend up to 8 years or longer beyond when the Envoy pilot flows at said company just trying to get to their next step, you may begin to understand how this costing formula makes sense. This particular costing metric is the driver on how the Envoy pilot literally blows the Republic pilot away on the earnings scale.
I would suggest that all Envoy pilots take a look at this and compare yourselves appropriately. We've already received outstanding news this week from the company. I fully expect to hear more good news very soon. Yes, it's still "mind blowing" to me why ANY Envoy pilot would leave when the opportunity of a lifetime has already been given to you.
The "shifting views from 30,000 feet" are just that. You may not have noticed but the regional landscape has shifted significantly over the past 5 years. It's apparent with the applicants we are getting and why we are still turning them away. In the end, we are hiring an AA pilot and quite a few applicants as of late haven't met that standard.
What happens when the environment changes is that the company may move to an alternate version of the same plan or a different one altogether. In Envoy's case, it's been a mix. Believe it or not, a cost has been put on the flow and when the numbers come out at the end, an Envoy pilot is compensated above what a Compass and Republic pilot are just to name two. And this is with Republic's new contract as well. I would think anyone with any sense would place Envoy several rungs higher on the ladder when just looking at the two carriers above alone not even considering pay.
How is that possible you ask? Take a look at an Envoy pilot's career vs. a Republic pilot's career from Day one of Indoc. The overall compensation curve is slightly lower on the front end of the Envoy pilot up until close to the 6 year mark when said pilot flows to American Airlines. Then, the curve skyrockets in favor of the Envoy/AA pilot. AAG is committed to providing a lifetime "cradle to grave" career path for pilots hired at Envoy. When you equate that with a Republic pilot who may spend up to 8 years or longer beyond when the Envoy pilot flows at said company just trying to get to their next step, you may begin to understand how this costing formula makes sense. This particular costing metric is the driver on how the Envoy pilot literally blows the Republic pilot away on the earnings scale.
I would suggest that all Envoy pilots take a look at this and compare yourselves appropriately. We've already received outstanding news this week from the company. I fully expect to hear more good news very soon. Yes, it's still "mind blowing" to me why ANY Envoy pilot would leave when the opportunity of a lifetime has already been given to you.
This is all contingent on the big master plan to work out. I think the jury is still out on flow an preferential interviews.
Hindsight will be 20/20 but I have to pay bills today and what to live today - not in whatever many years are projected.
BTW, I don't think pay should be the biggest driver for anyone. More important issues are;
- can you /want to live in base
- how efficient am I being used, I.e. Do I fly and money when away from home or do I spend days on end in Podunk city USA
03-04-2016, 08:02 AM
#1688
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2013
Posts: 1,054
Originally Posted by cr700
Ordinarily I wouldn't bother responding to you since you don't even work here. But you bring up an interesting point that I think is crucial for current Envoy pilots as well as those considering Envoy.
The "shifting views from 30,000 feet" are just that. You may not have noticed but the regional landscape has shifted significantly over the past 5 years. It's apparent with the applicants we are getting and why we are still turning them away. In the end, we are hiring an AA pilot and quite a few applicants as of late haven't met that standard.
What happens when the environment changes is that the company may move to an alternate version of the same plan or a different one altogether. In Envoy's case, it's been a mix. Believe it or not, a cost has been put on the flow and when the numbers come out at the end, an Envoy pilot is compensated above what a Compass and Republic pilot are just to name two. And this is with Republic's new contract as well. I would think anyone with any sense would place Envoy several rungs higher on the ladder when just looking at the two carriers above alone not even considering pay.
How is that possible you ask? Take a look at an Envoy pilot's career vs. a Republic pilot's career from Day one of Indoc. The overall compensation curve is slightly lower on the front end of the Envoy pilot up until close to the 6 year mark when said pilot flows to American Airlines. Then, the curve skyrockets in favor of the Envoy/AA pilot. AAG is committed to providing a lifetime "cradle to grave" career path for pilots hired at Envoy. When you equate that with a Republic pilot who may spend up to 8 years or longer beyond when the Envoy pilot flows at said company just trying to get to their next step, you may begin to understand how this costing formula makes sense. This particular costing metric is the driver on how the Envoy pilot literally blows the Republic pilot away on the earnings scale.
I would suggest that all Envoy pilots take a look at this and compare yourselves appropriately. We've already received outstanding news this week from the company. I fully expect to hear more good news very soon. Yes, it's still "mind blowing" to me why ANY Envoy pilot would leave when the opportunity of a lifetime has already been given to you.
The "shifting views from 30,000 feet" are just that. You may not have noticed but the regional landscape has shifted significantly over the past 5 years. It's apparent with the applicants we are getting and why we are still turning them away. In the end, we are hiring an AA pilot and quite a few applicants as of late haven't met that standard.
What happens when the environment changes is that the company may move to an alternate version of the same plan or a different one altogether. In Envoy's case, it's been a mix. Believe it or not, a cost has been put on the flow and when the numbers come out at the end, an Envoy pilot is compensated above what a Compass and Republic pilot are just to name two. And this is with Republic's new contract as well. I would think anyone with any sense would place Envoy several rungs higher on the ladder when just looking at the two carriers above alone not even considering pay.
How is that possible you ask? Take a look at an Envoy pilot's career vs. a Republic pilot's career from Day one of Indoc. The overall compensation curve is slightly lower on the front end of the Envoy pilot up until close to the 6 year mark when said pilot flows to American Airlines. Then, the curve skyrockets in favor of the Envoy/AA pilot. AAG is committed to providing a lifetime "cradle to grave" career path for pilots hired at Envoy. When you equate that with a Republic pilot who may spend up to 8 years or longer beyond when the Envoy pilot flows at said company just trying to get to their next step, you may begin to understand how this costing formula makes sense. This particular costing metric is the driver on how the Envoy pilot literally blows the Republic pilot away on the earnings scale.
I would suggest that all Envoy pilots take a look at this and compare yourselves appropriately. We've already received outstanding news this week from the company. I fully expect to hear more good news very soon. Yes, it's still "mind blowing" to me why ANY Envoy pilot would leave when the opportunity of a lifetime has already been given to you.
Here you go again. Real envoy pilots on here are talking about real issues and all you are trying to do is sell the snake oil that is flow.
FACT: Day to day life at envoy is MUCH worse than the other regional you just mentioned, and almost all the rest.
MYTH: You may or may not flow to AA in 6 years from the time one starts at envoy. Given the FACT that you are already using loopholes not intended to slow the flow, give he FACT you have done so in the past, given the FACT that people flowing today have been at this airline over 16 years, one should not EVER put flow above the notion the could, and given past history WILL, be here longer than managements magic carrot machine is trying to pass off as fact.
03-04-2016, 08:06 AM
#1689
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 290
given the FACT that people flowing today have been at this airline over 16 years, one should not EVER put flow above the notion the could, and given past history WILL, be here longer than managements magic carrot machine is trying to pass off as fact.
03-04-2016, 08:10 AM
#1690
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 394
Originally Posted by cr700
Ordinarily I wouldn't bother responding to you since you don't even work here. But you bring up an interesting point that I think is crucial for current Envoy pilots as well as those considering Envoy.
The "shifting views from 30,000 feet" are just that. You may not have noticed but the regional landscape has shifted significantly over the past 5 years. It's apparent with the applicants we are getting and why we are still turning them away. In the end, we are hiring an AA pilot and quite a few applicants as of late haven't met that standard.
What happens when the environment changes is that the company may move to an alternate version of the same plan or a different one altogether. In Envoy's case, it's been a mix. Believe it or not, a cost has been put on the flow and when the numbers come out at the end, an Envoy pilot is compensated above what a Compass and Republic pilot are just to name two. And this is with Republic's new contract as well. I would think anyone with any sense would place Envoy several rungs higher on the ladder when just looking at the two carriers above alone not even considering pay.
How is that possible you ask? Take a look at an Envoy pilot's career vs. a Republic pilot's career from Day one of Indoc. The overall compensation curve is slightly lower on the front end of the Envoy pilot up until close to the 6 year mark when said pilot flows to American Airlines. Then, the curve skyrockets in favor of the Envoy/AA pilot. AAG is committed to providing a lifetime "cradle to grave" career path for pilots hired at Envoy. When you equate that with a Republic pilot who may spend up to 8 years or longer beyond when the Envoy pilot flows at said company just trying to get to their next step, you may begin to understand how this costing formula makes sense. This particular costing metric is the driver on how the Envoy pilot literally blows the Republic pilot away on the earnings scale.
I would suggest that all Envoy pilots take a look at this and compare yourselves appropriately. We've already received outstanding news this week from the company. I fully expect to hear more good news very soon. Yes, it's still "mind blowing" to me why ANY Envoy pilot would leave when the opportunity of a lifetime has already been given to you.
The "shifting views from 30,000 feet" are just that. You may not have noticed but the regional landscape has shifted significantly over the past 5 years. It's apparent with the applicants we are getting and why we are still turning them away. In the end, we are hiring an AA pilot and quite a few applicants as of late haven't met that standard.
What happens when the environment changes is that the company may move to an alternate version of the same plan or a different one altogether. In Envoy's case, it's been a mix. Believe it or not, a cost has been put on the flow and when the numbers come out at the end, an Envoy pilot is compensated above what a Compass and Republic pilot are just to name two. And this is with Republic's new contract as well. I would think anyone with any sense would place Envoy several rungs higher on the ladder when just looking at the two carriers above alone not even considering pay.
How is that possible you ask? Take a look at an Envoy pilot's career vs. a Republic pilot's career from Day one of Indoc. The overall compensation curve is slightly lower on the front end of the Envoy pilot up until close to the 6 year mark when said pilot flows to American Airlines. Then, the curve skyrockets in favor of the Envoy/AA pilot. AAG is committed to providing a lifetime "cradle to grave" career path for pilots hired at Envoy. When you equate that with a Republic pilot who may spend up to 8 years or longer beyond when the Envoy pilot flows at said company just trying to get to their next step, you may begin to understand how this costing formula makes sense. This particular costing metric is the driver on how the Envoy pilot literally blows the Republic pilot away on the earnings scale.
I would suggest that all Envoy pilots take a look at this and compare yourselves appropriately. We've already received outstanding news this week from the company. I fully expect to hear more good news very soon. Yes, it's still "mind blowing" to me why ANY Envoy pilot would leave when the opportunity of a lifetime has already been given to you.
Your seem extremely certain of yourself that the six year flow will happen. If that's the case, I hope ALPA can secure AA pay scales for Envoy pilots on six year pay.
Same goes for upgrade. If y'all are going to sell 2.5 year upgrades, put your money where your mouth is, and pay pilots captain pay at that time, whether they've upgraded or not.
Until then, a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush. I'd take an LCC job any day over promises that don't pay the bills.
Honestly, I hope the next "big announcement" is enough to put some reality behind these projections. We shall see.
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