PilotCrusader,

I figured I'd pull my nose out of Envoy business. You're much more versed in Envoy and answered the BS better than me. I find it hard to stay silent in the face of such garbage.

 

I think you should go with your gut, you said you gut feeling was to run with the offer I would say do it. Everyone I know who works for JetBlue absolutely loves it, and won't be going anywhere else. Either way its a roll of the dice, its a gamble to stay and wait to flow just as much as it is to progress your career and go with JetBlue. If you could drive to work, I don't think you would ever regret it.
Also, lets assume things stay constant and assume a four year upgrade at B6 or a 4-5 year flow to AA as you stated. In four years at B6 you would be a junior capt, making around 189 a hour, and able to sell back 9.5 hours a month at 1.5% or an extra 32,319 on top of your base salary! Or you hang out at envoy, wait for the flow and make 80ish per hour on reserve at AA the same year you could be making around 200k at JetBlue at min guarantee and PTO sell back. The icing on the cake would be driving to work.
To me its a no brainer, run to JetBlue. In full discloser I left envoy to start at an ULCC after 2 years and 10 months. Good luck to you!

 

I would be leaving under the terms of staying at JetBlue until retirement. My concern with the flow is that of everyone who truly understands it. It can and for all purposes should slow down this summer with the final return of the furloughes. Right now I'm looking at 3-4 years however that will change after May. By how much no one knows. Let's say it adds 6 months. Now I'm at 3.5-4.5 years before flow, still not terrible but being a New englander that's a long time for a guaranteed commute by airplane appossed to driving to work at JetBlue(BOS-JFK JR bases) And at the end of the day going to JetBlue will not cut me off from a chance in the near future at either big 3, so all tho I will be leaving on the hope to stay until retirement - it's not an ultimatum. Obviously it is weighing on me and I do appreciate the advice offered thanks.

(Let's see how this vacancy bid turns out. That could be the final straw either way)
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I think you should go with your gut, you said you gut feeling was to run with the offer I would say do it. Everyone I know who works for JetBlue absolutely loves it, and won't be going anywhere else. Either way its a roll of the dice, its a gamble to stay and wait to flow just as much as it is to progress your career and go with JetBlue. If you could drive to work, I don't think you would ever regret it.
Also, lets assume things stay constant and assume a four year upgrade at B6 or a 4-5 year flow to AA as you stated. In four years at B6 you would be a junior capt, making around 189 a hour, and able to sell back 9.5 hours a month at 1.5% or an extra 32,319 on top of your base salary! Or you hang out at envoy, wait for the flow and make 80ish per hour on reserve at AA the same year you could be making around 200k at JetBlue at min guarantee and PTO sell back. The icing on the cake would be driving to work.
To me its a no brainer, run to JetBlue. In full discloser I left envoy to start at an ULCC after 2 years and 10 months. Good luck to you!

 

Why haven't you flowed then?

You are just absolutely wrong on so many points above. Seriously, you would recommend an FO hired here last year go to JetBlue, when he or she is only a few years away from a lifetime career at AA?
That's unbelievable. Do you know how much money they would leave on the table in doing so? Depending on their age, it could be near 1 million dollars. Plus, they would work for AA, not some LCC.

I stand by my assertion. For an Envoy FO, going to Jetblue, Virgin, Spirit is a LATERAL move. An Envoy CA to Blue is a DOWNGRADE.

 

How much do you think Envoy management is paying this dude to post on APC?

 

I would guess he actually IS one of envoy management.

He just keeps spitting out the same thing over and over and over.

 

He's like a living billboard!

 

I'm downgrading my estimate of cr700's value. The fact that he's actually bothered to return and post here, the lack of nuance in any of his replies and adherence to the repetition of unattainable numbers is making him a troll, not a GSW desk jockey. The total unwillingness to fill in the blanks to paint a more clear picture for new hires is telling, and skirting the proper channels to release or discuss company matters as a manager is strictly verboten.

So, he's just another APC poster - and probably an alt for an existing member here used to stir the pot. Give his opinion due weight.

 

Why haven't you flowed Ric?
I'm too old to flow. My days are numbered.

As for your assertion: I'll help you out a little - I highly doubt the average envoy FO hired last year would have the ability to get hired at JetBlue. I just ran some numbers though.
Using APCs payscales - let's assume Pilot A does a 4 year career at envoy and leaves for JetBlue. He upgraded at envoy and received CA pay for year 4. He then went to JetBlue on the airbus and upgraded on the airbus, taking CA pay on year 4(yes JetBlue is upgrading at year 3 for the foreseeable future). Pilot A finishes his 25 year career at jetBlue(measured from the start of is employment at envoy).
Pilot B drinks the koolaid and does a 6 year stint in envoy prison. Same thing - upgrades on the E145 at year 4 pay. He then goes to AA at 6 years. He is an FO for 10 years(I think I'm being gracious here. Current upgrade is what 17?). He spends 8 years on a narrowbody and goes to a wide body for 2. He received year 11 pay as a narrowbody CA. His last 4 years of 25 are spent as a widebody CA.

Guess how much more pilot B made? $250k. What I didn't include is profit sharing. This year JetBlue paid 2 months worth. American paid none. That tends to almost even it out.

Lots can change in a 25 year career. Right now Pilot A is making $183/hr on year 4 CA pay getting pic, while Pilot B is making year 2 FO pay at AA $116/hr, after doing 2 extra years in envoy jail.

All this for the "promise" of a flow that is proven in the past to never work? A flow of 2.5 and 6 that you and I both know isn't realistic, IF it works.

Go for the SURE thing right NOW. Don't roll the dice on a "promise" from people that care about no one and have zero conscience.

 

^^^

Don't get stuck here like the rest of us. Many have put in too many years to throw away with flow approaching. As an FO? Enjoy that new career where you never have to read another ENY forum.