Why Envoy's Flow Doesn't Add Up
#11
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Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 490
And the classes before that?
Do you know what the word average means? Let me help you. You take each classes numbers. Add them all up and divide that number by how many months you included. Seems like basic math but there are a lot of pilots that are bad at math. Let me know if you need help with the addition part of the complicated formula.
Do you know what the word average means? Let me help you. You take each classes numbers. Add them all up and divide that number by how many months you included. Seems like basic math but there are a lot of pilots that are bad at math. Let me know if you need help with the addition part of the complicated formula.
Last class = 3
#13
ag386 has a whole bunch of opinions stated as fact. Our new hire classes have actually averaged around 18 the last few months and is now picking up considerably with the new bonuses and 175 to new hires. ag386 has no facts to support his claim. Only opinions. One thing I would like to know is why Envoy has such a target on it in regards to if we can staff for the future. We are getting more new hires than any other WO, and more new hires than most the other regionals except Endeavor and SkyWest. The argument of "ya, everything looks good IF you can attract new hires" applies to every regional, not just Envoy.
Its a very valid question!
The flow is a great carrot, but your pay needs to rise in order to attract more new hires or else you may end up in a situation where the flow has to slow. Its a business and I can't see them flowing to the point where they cant fly the planes they have.... Can you?
#14
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Joined APC: Apr 2013
Posts: 468
Why does it matter if I work here or not Officer? According to you, I've "lateraled" and went to Allegiant. Sorry, I couldn't make that "lateral" move to JB, NK or VA. Oh, for Captains it's a "downgrade" going to any of these places.
Why don't you get back over in the other Envoy thread and write tickets there. This thread is to show the flow isn't going to work as advertised.
Why don't you get back over in the other Envoy thread and write tickets there. This thread is to show the flow isn't going to work as advertised.
#15
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Joined APC: Oct 2014
Position: Downward-Facing Dog Pose
Posts: 1,537
It's really very, very simple.
"Flow" = a Doug Parker promise.
You wanna put your faith and trust in Doug Parker, of all people, be my guest.
But if you do, and you don't flow, I never want to hear from you about it. No whining, no complaining, no "woe is me". No nada.
You've been warned. And if you don't (or didn't know) who Doug Parker is/was, then you didn't do your homework before making the leap. In which case, no, you STILL don't get to whine, complain, or pretend to be a victim.
Potential new hires should read and reread the above very carefully. It is 100% true.
"Flow" = a Doug Parker promise.
You wanna put your faith and trust in Doug Parker, of all people, be my guest.
But if you do, and you don't flow, I never want to hear from you about it. No whining, no complaining, no "woe is me". No nada.
You've been warned. And if you don't (or didn't know) who Doug Parker is/was, then you didn't do your homework before making the leap. In which case, no, you STILL don't get to whine, complain, or pretend to be a victim.
There are a few cheerleading Envoy pilots here that constantly are in sales mode on the threads relating to Envoy. They are always defending management's actions and looking only at management projections and memos to the pilot group to "sell" their product. They desperately need to sell this product because they need all the new hires they can get. Why? So that they can flow someday in the future.
#16
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Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 394
Why Envoy's Flow Doesn't Add Up
A lot of y'all are looking at this backwards. If Envoy can't staff, that means each pilot they have becomes more valuable. It also means they will be more likely to increase compensation and ease work rules to hang on to everyone they've got.
Head on over to the Mesa thread where current pilots are telling newhires to stay away, so they can get a better contract. Less newhires = more leverage for current pilots, not less.
Also, if the contractual flow is violated, Envoy attrition will probably spike and they would lose more than the 25/month that were flowing.
You guys can't sit here and say, "flow is a carrot, and guys are only staying for the flow." Then turn around and say that the company will shut off the flow and every one will just sit here and wait for it to start again. If they shut it down, many senior FO's down to new FO's will see this as sign of what's to come and bail very quickly.
All that said, I don't have a crystal ball. You guys with your solid predictions and guarantees are fun to read, but the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. One thing is for sure, it'll be interesting times we're heading into.
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Head on over to the Mesa thread where current pilots are telling newhires to stay away, so they can get a better contract. Less newhires = more leverage for current pilots, not less.
Also, if the contractual flow is violated, Envoy attrition will probably spike and they would lose more than the 25/month that were flowing.
You guys can't sit here and say, "flow is a carrot, and guys are only staying for the flow." Then turn around and say that the company will shut off the flow and every one will just sit here and wait for it to start again. If they shut it down, many senior FO's down to new FO's will see this as sign of what's to come and bail very quickly.
All that said, I don't have a crystal ball. You guys with your solid predictions and guarantees are fun to read, but the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. One thing is for sure, it'll be interesting times we're heading into.
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#17
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 854
You mean the bigger ones in January due to college students graduating at that time? I guess we can look forward to hiring 30ish in June again.
The problem is that we need 72 straight months of an average of 40 to maintain the flow for the length of your projections, and we haven't even had one that size. Management is three steps behind, as usual.
Add Mesa to your list of regionals with bigger class sizes than us. Not sure, but Compass may be there too. Not many doing worse than us.
The problem is that we need 72 straight months of an average of 40 to maintain the flow for the length of your projections, and we haven't even had one that size. Management is three steps behind, as usual.
Add Mesa to your list of regionals with bigger class sizes than us. Not sure, but Compass may be there too. Not many doing worse than us.
#18
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 854
A lot of y'all are looking at this backwards. If Envoy can't staff, that means each pilot they have becomes more valuable. It also means they will be more likely to increase compensation and ease work rules to hang on to everyone they've got.
Head on over to the Mesa thread where current pilots are telling newhires to stay away, so they can get a better contract. Less newhires = more leverage for current pilots, not less.
Also, if the contractual flow is violated, Envoy attrition will probably spike and they would lose more than the 25/month that were flowing.
You guys can't sit here and say, "flow is a carrot, and guys are only staying for the flow." Then turn around and say that the company will shut off the flow and every one will just sit here and wait for it to start again. If they shut it down, many senior FO's down to new FO's will see this as sign of what's to come and bail very quickly.
All that said, I don't have a crystal ball. You guys with your solid predictions and guarantees are fun to read, but the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. One thing is for sure, it'll be interesting times we're heading into.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Head on over to the Mesa thread where current pilots are telling newhires to stay away, so they can get a better contract. Less newhires = more leverage for current pilots, not less.
Also, if the contractual flow is violated, Envoy attrition will probably spike and they would lose more than the 25/month that were flowing.
You guys can't sit here and say, "flow is a carrot, and guys are only staying for the flow." Then turn around and say that the company will shut off the flow and every one will just sit here and wait for it to start again. If they shut it down, many senior FO's down to new FO's will see this as sign of what's to come and bail very quickly.
All that said, I don't have a crystal ball. You guys with your solid predictions and guarantees are fun to read, but the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. One thing is for sure, it'll be interesting times we're heading into.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
You think they wouldn't do that because it would hurt recruiting? What about all they've done in the last 2+ years that have hurt recruiting? They don't seem to care.
I don't believe I know the future either, but that doesn't mean we can't deduce what is more likely than not.
#19
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Joined APC: Mar 2016
Posts: 122
You mean the bigger ones in January due to college students graduating at that time? I guess we can look forward to hiring 30ish in June again.
The problem is that we need 72 straight months of an average of 40 to maintain the flow for the length of your projections, and we haven't even had one that size. Management is three steps behind, as usual.
Add Mesa to your list of regionals with bigger class sizes than us. Not sure, but Compass may be there too. Not many doing worse than us.
The problem is that we need 72 straight months of an average of 40 to maintain the flow for the length of your projections, and we haven't even had one that size. Management is three steps behind, as usual.
Add Mesa to your list of regionals with bigger class sizes than us. Not sure, but Compass may be there too. Not many doing worse than us.
#20
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Joined APC: Nov 2013
Posts: 854
If you didn't already know, Mesa hires everyone they "interview". We could do that too and have well over 50 a month in class. Mesa has a 40% washout rate. The ones that do make it through, consistently have almost double the amount of sim sessions and over 60 hours of IOE.
Since you're in management, do you care to address any of my other points?
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