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Old 04-14-2019, 11:22 AM   #21  
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Originally Posted by harvick4 View Post
You lost me at "You DO get paid"

Do you know what cancelation pay is?

Also, neat story with that plane breaking and overage. My trip in 2 weeks just canceled and I'm now in sub. Now what?? Just pay me and let me live my life and not be on the hook.
A one day trip. Easy, decline OTP now and peruse Open Time occasionally over the next two weeks.
Barring a 777 Month Long 70CH trip going away, virtually guarantee you'll be able to fill that 6 CH hole and be paid 7.5CH's to do so


And No, not familiar with all the details of Cancellation pay.

I do know, from perusing Delta's last Contract Comparison that Every Major has Rotation Guarantee and Everyone also has a Recover Obligation.

What do they mean by Recovery Obligation?

Delta's says 6 hours of Availability after Report with the Return from Original trip 4 hours; same calendar day for Ocean Crossing

American says 2 hours (4 hours if removed prior to Report) and then Deomestic 4 hours or 1:59 whichever is later, ocean crossing 30 hours

United says 2 hours (4 hours if removed prior to report)...and Original Trip

Alaska says Unlimited after report (boy that sounds scary)...return from original trip 5 hours

Hawaiian also Unlimited. Recovery flying may not be longer than the original trip and must touch one day of the original trip

Jet Blue's pretty complex.

Southwest says must contact (s)Crew Scheduling for reassignment

And there's a Simple Yes to Recovery Obligation for both FedEx and UPS
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:27 AM   #22  
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Originally Posted by kronan View Post
You DO get paid for the trip, PERIOD...that's what the Default Option is. Remain in Substitution.

What you Don't get is all of the Overage, at 150% for your original trip. Only get Overage for the period of Time you're not on a pay status.

In general, if your Revision will have you getting back to Memphis 12 hours late, then either choosing OTP or Declining SUB outright will get you more money-especially if there's an EDP involved there. (EG-you show at 9 for the leg to Memphis only to learn the plane's hard down, parts +2 and the part is scheduled to arrive around 5AM....so, CRS sends you back to the hotel for 9'sh hours with an AM HSBY. Plane's fixed at 8 AM and CRS calls you up to return you to Memphis. You'd get about 4 hours at 150%, another 1.5CH for the HSBY, and 3.5CH for the extra duty period.

OR, you could've stayed in SUB knowing the Company can't possibly use you since you're still on a trip and collected the 6 hours for the conflicted trip.


OR...just in case they fix the plane early, you can Wait to Decline SUB until you block-in after returning to Memphis. Or when you wake up the next morning and know you'll come out ahead with the Overage.

OR, after you get back to the hotel at 11 and have a quick cocktail you could opt for OTP which would still be prior to your Conflicted Trips showtime...would act as insurance to a quick fix or CRS change of the Mind Revision 2

AK ... company's apologizer.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:28 AM   #23  
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Originally Posted by Adlerdriver View Post
Okay - PhD level stuff now.
Your TAFB trip gets extended into your next trip which is completely covered by the footprint of the extended trip.

Say there are exactly 24 hours between the trips. That 6.4 CH worth of time between trips is going to be paid at 150% as overage even if you choose SUB. You just don't get any of the overage that occurs after the SUB trip starts.

However - "Overage" is specifically defined in the section 4 BB of the contract and has nothing to do with disruptions (other than they often occur simultaneously). So, my question is:

Without getting into the details of good or bad choices in my example - If you elect SUB and had two extra duty periods and two extra landings on your revised trip that occurred "under" the footprint of the SUB, would you get paid for those? They're not technically "overage", they're disruptions. It seems like you would get paid for those and just give up the true overage pay that falls under the SUB trip footprint, but maybe I'm reading too much into it.
You'd have to build it for me.
But extra landings that occur during an Extra Duty period are freebies.

And, as I understand it, Extra duty Periods and disruptions would be paid regardless of whether you Decline SUB entirely or Choose OTP to decline SUB and retain pay protection to get the overage.

Bonus to Overlapping days is the 150% of Overage Pay versus the 100% pay for the conflicted trip
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:31 AM   #24  
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AK ... company's apologizer.
Really, apologizing for something that's been part of FedEx operations since before we had a CBA?

Why should I have to apologize for that?
Elimination of SUB wasn't even on the agenda for CBA 06, nor 15.

IF it is for CBA202X, I'll happily fly my line and protect min days off while we strive towards that goal.

Just not sure how achievable that goal actually is. But if that's what the majority of my peers want to work for, well, I know what side I'm on.
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Old 04-14-2019, 11:34 AM   #25  
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But if I'm apologizing for things that are part of FedEx.

Please, allow me to apologize for being unable to eliminate all Carryover at straight time during the last 2 rounds of negotiations.

Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the makeup bank process that prevents people from working as much as they want.

Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the +12 CH trade up provisions since we stuck with the whole makeup bank thing.

Please, allow me to apologize for not formulating Contractual Protection requiring Basic Charter HSBY footprints from being built into the Bidpack to prevent the Wolfpack.
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Old 04-14-2019, 02:57 PM   #26  
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Can someone help me understand why I would ever select option 1 (drop the trip in conflict, receive overage on first trip) when I can select option 3 (receive OTP for the trip in conflict, receive overage for first trip)?
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Old 04-14-2019, 03:27 PM   #27  
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That entire system makes no sense and needs to be changed. If I get involuntarily extended which conflicts with my next trip, that trip should be dropped with pay. Even with OTP, there may not be anything in open time to pick up or you may get that “earlier time stamp” notification. Add a few more things to the list.

1. If a trip conflicts with training, it should get dropped with pay.
2. If you submit for your passport or visas and don’t get it in time to start a trip, that trip should be dropped with pay. And you shouldn’t have to get your passport or visas during your personal time off or vacation.
3.There should be no substitution.
4. Improve the A Plan and/or
5. Increase the B
6. Give profit sharing

If 4-6 are not met next TA should definitely be a no vote.
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Old 04-14-2019, 06:45 PM   #28  
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kronan View Post
But if I'm apologizing for things that are part of FedEx.

Please, allow me to apologize for being unable to eliminate all Carryover at straight time during the last 2 rounds of negotiations.

Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the makeup bank process that prevents people from working as much as they want.

Please, allow me to apologize for not eliminating the +12 CH trade up provisions since we stuck with the whole makeup bank thing.

Please, allow me to apologize for not formulating Contractual Protection requiring Basic Charter HSBY footprints from being built into the Bidpack to prevent the Wolfpack.

I think he meant that Alaska in general is the company’s apologizer.

As for your post, there are other ways to prevent pilots from picking up unlimitedly and get rid of the banks.

As for other airlines (AAL, DAL, UAL), my reading of the UAL contract and talking with friends at those airlines, they all protect pay for the trip lost, have provisions to be reassigned a trip or reserve within the original footprint of the trip lost, and have provisions for restoring any days off you originally had. All of them differ in the details of how those things are done, phone availability, reassignment restrictions, etc, but they protect the integrity of the pilots’ schedule and pay a lot more than our systems seems to. And probably just as important, it’s a whole lot simpler to understand.
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Old 04-15-2019, 06:42 AM   #29  
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Can someone help me understand why I would ever select option 1 (drop the trip in conflict, receive overage on first trip) when I can select option 3 (receive OTP for the trip in conflict, receive overage for first trip)?
There is one, and only one reason I can come up with.

If it's after show time for the dropped trip, you cannot elect OTP (unless you were notified after showtime, then you are supposed to elect OTP immediately if you want it), therefore the choice to drop the trip and get overage, or stay in sub. I can't find it in the contract, but I believe that you have until the end of when the dropped trip was scheduled to chose to make the choice.

All the more reason to not pick up crew notifications until you have the time, can look at something closely, and are able to make an informed decision. Do not even click on a crew notification until you are ready to deal with the ramifications of it.

Could our sub policy even be more confusing?
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Old 04-21-2019, 07:22 AM   #30  
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Can someone help me understand why I would ever select option 1 (drop the trip in conflict, receive overage on first trip) when I can select option 3 (receive OTP for the trip in conflict, receive overage for first trip)?
You may have a ton of events upcoming and don't want to work another day, somewhen in the future.
The most lucrative CH week I've ever had at FedEx was a result of SUB\Extensions. DH to work on Monday, Monday's flight was swept to Indy and revised with a rest\HSBY, then revised with a rest\HSBY...rinse repeat until Operated out Friday AM with a backend DH. Same footprint as my 30 hour hub turn week, big CHs thanks to the 150% and 200% overage, Extra Duty periods, and disruptions.

After we made it to the hotel that first night, and I grabbed a midnight beer to preclude a CRS change of the mind, I opted for OTP for that 1st 6 hour trip that went away, and then the 2nd, but 3rd & 4th I declined outright. Back then OTP was bid period +1, so might make a different choice today.

But again, that would depend on the timing.

Ultimately, you will always get more $$ choosing OTP. But the cost is another day of work, somewhen. If you have a staycation month during that somewhen, cherry picking an extra day of work isn't a big deal.

All depends upon what you want to do.

Substitution is one of the very few times where the power to work\not work is totally under a pilots control. And if you have day flying, you can even say NO to CRS's BS Sub assignment with certain conditions and not impact on your pay.

Spend some time chair-flying Substitution. Once you understand it, evaluating your options and making a decision is easy. And, you can make more $$ by understanding it and exercising your choice.

Or, you can do nothing and simply be paid BLG.

Or, you can wind up working extra when you didn't really have to.

(Had one bud with a trip removed for legality, he was leaning towards OTP when I pointed out that there would be no WAY for the company to Legally give him a SUB assignment so why go for an extra 90 minutes of pay in exchange for an extra day of work in the future when he could simply have a paid day off. His rationale was that he didn't want to stay in Memphis for his IAP on the SUB window, and I pointed out that there's no Requirement to stay in Memphis or at the airport during the IAP...and that you can always say NO to a SUB assignment. But a SUB assignment has to be a Legal assignment and since he was removed for Legality....not an option to use him that night)
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