NAI and outcomes
02-20-2017, 05:03 AM
#41
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Norway is not in the EU and is starting NAI to gain access to EU open skies. That is a Flag of Convenience.
Do any of the airlines you named have US based crews? It matters because as long as they don't it limits the pressure on wages because their are only so many Americans willing move abroad. With US bases it perpetuates a race to the bottom here at home.
You still didn't answer my post above? Is it possible for a European to earn what American pilots are currently? If not it's not really a career especially if it's a short term contract. It's a job. And if it can never support a family comfortably it's a dead end one at that.
Do any of the airlines you named have US based crews? It matters because as long as they don't it limits the pressure on wages because their are only so many Americans willing move abroad. With US bases it perpetuates a race to the bottom here at home.
You still didn't answer my post above? Is it possible for a European to earn what American pilots are currently? If not it's not really a career especially if it's a short term contract. It's a job. And if it can never support a family comfortably it's a dead end one at that.
02-20-2017, 05:03 AM
#42
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: A320
Posts: 311
Originally Posted by NEDude
Just a quick summary:
NAI is not a true 'flag of convenience' scheme because Ireland is a part of the European Union, meaning Norwegian is unable to skirt EU/EEA laws by starting a subsidiary in Ireland. Calling it a 'flag of convenience' also ignores the fact that pilots are also covered under the laws of the nation of their contract (which is Norway or the UK - NOT Singapore as ALPA claims), the nation where they are based, and the nation where the aircraft they are on is registered (ALL Norwegian aircraft are registered in Norway or the EU).
Starting or owning a subsidiary airline in another EU/EEA nation is not new and is not unique to Norwegian. Lufthansa, IAG (British Airways-Iberia), easyJet, and Thomas Cook, to name a few, own and operate subsidiary airlines in nations outside of where their main headquarters is. Most of the subsidiary airlines hold US DOT approval.
The use of contract employees is not new or unique to Norwegian and it is a common practice in many parts of the world. Brussels Airlines, WOW Air, Korean Air, Air China and many others make use of contract pilots and also hold US DOT approval.
Norwegian is an average paying job for the European market. Eurowings, a Lufthansa alter-ego airline which flies to 3 US destinations, pays 15% less for wide body pilots than Norwegian. Where is the ALPA outrage over that - an alter-ego airline significantly undercutting even the LCCs and competing against ALPA carriers?
Legal experts for the authorities on both sides of the Atlantic have examined the 'Open Skies' treaty as it relates to NAI and ALL OF THEM have concluded there is no legal basis for denying, or as the case is now, revoking the operating certificate of NAI. Revoking a legally issued operating certificate on zero legal grounds would only serve to start an aviation trade war between the nations of the Open Skies treaty. Who do you think would benefit from that? You are a fool if you think such a dispute would be beneficial to the careers of U.S. pilots.
If pointing out those facts makes me a tool, then so be it. But ignoring those facts and blindly following the ALPA propaganda makes the rest of you fools.
NAI is not a true 'flag of convenience' scheme because Ireland is a part of the European Union, meaning Norwegian is unable to skirt EU/EEA laws by starting a subsidiary in Ireland. Calling it a 'flag of convenience' also ignores the fact that pilots are also covered under the laws of the nation of their contract (which is Norway or the UK - NOT Singapore as ALPA claims), the nation where they are based, and the nation where the aircraft they are on is registered (ALL Norwegian aircraft are registered in Norway or the EU).
Starting or owning a subsidiary airline in another EU/EEA nation is not new and is not unique to Norwegian. Lufthansa, IAG (British Airways-Iberia), easyJet, and Thomas Cook, to name a few, own and operate subsidiary airlines in nations outside of where their main headquarters is. Most of the subsidiary airlines hold US DOT approval.
The use of contract employees is not new or unique to Norwegian and it is a common practice in many parts of the world. Brussels Airlines, WOW Air, Korean Air, Air China and many others make use of contract pilots and also hold US DOT approval.
Norwegian is an average paying job for the European market. Eurowings, a Lufthansa alter-ego airline which flies to 3 US destinations, pays 15% less for wide body pilots than Norwegian. Where is the ALPA outrage over that - an alter-ego airline significantly undercutting even the LCCs and competing against ALPA carriers?
Legal experts for the authorities on both sides of the Atlantic have examined the 'Open Skies' treaty as it relates to NAI and ALL OF THEM have concluded there is no legal basis for denying, or as the case is now, revoking the operating certificate of NAI. Revoking a legally issued operating certificate on zero legal grounds would only serve to start an aviation trade war between the nations of the Open Skies treaty. Who do you think would benefit from that? You are a fool if you think such a dispute would be beneficial to the careers of U.S. pilots.
If pointing out those facts makes me a tool, then so be it. But ignoring those facts and blindly following the ALPA propaganda makes the rest of you fools.
02-20-2017, 05:49 AM
#43
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2014
Posts: 1,681
Originally Posted by Beretta01
Might I ask: is employment at OSM/NAI worth being pseudo-blacklisted from every U.S. 121 air carrier minus Mesa/Go-Jet?
Probably not at regionals. I'd be very surprised if any NAI people ever get hired at legacies.
-If a list is published, I know people who would carry it around-just like an Eastern list. No one wants that following them around for the rest of their career.
02-20-2017, 05:51 AM
#44
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
They said the same about the striking CO pilots--they're all ALPA now. Yes, hiring different and Chief Pilots have a say, but if they need pilots, ex-NAI will hired. Maybe last priority, tho.
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GF
02-20-2017, 06:29 AM
#45
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Posts: 1,067
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
Norway is not in the EU and is starting NAI to gain access to EU open skies. That is a Flag of Convenience.
Do any of the airlines you named have US based crews? It matters because as long as they don't it limits the pressure on wages because their are only so many Americans willing move abroad. With US bases it perpetuates a race to the bottom here at home.
You still didn't answer my post above? Is it possible for a European to earn what American pilots are currently? If not it's not really a career especially if it's a short term contract. It's a job. And if it can never support a family comfortably it's a dead end one at that.
Do any of the airlines you named have US based crews? It matters because as long as they don't it limits the pressure on wages because their are only so many Americans willing move abroad. With US bases it perpetuates a race to the bottom here at home.
You still didn't answer my post above? Is it possible for a European to earn what American pilots are currently? If not it's not really a career especially if it's a short term contract. It's a job. And if it can never support a family comfortably it's a dead end one at that.
Not sure if any of the above mentioned airlines have US based crews. But the opposition to NAI originated long before their stated desire to establish US bases. Do any US airlines have foreign based crews still? They have in the not too distant past.
While I am not privy to the upper end of salaries of European legacy pilots, from what I saw in my job search, pilot salaries in general are lower in Europe. But as I have stated before, I live quite comfortably and I have yet to meet a pilot in Europe who is not living comfortably, whether they fly for SAS, Jet Time, Norwegian, easyJet, Avion Express, WOW Air, Cimber, Aer Lingus or Thomas Cook, and regardless whether they live in Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Spain, Italy, Lithuania, Belgium or Ireland.
02-20-2017, 09:22 AM
#46
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Originally Posted by NEDude
Norway is in the EEA and as such has access to the European single market just like an EU member. The establishment of its AOC in Ireland does not affect the access of the Norwegian brand to the United States as both Norway and Ireland are covered under the 'Open Skies' treaty. So it sounds like you are now arguing that the US DOT, US airlines and ALPA should have the right to intervene in intra- European agreements and aviation agreements between the EU and other parts of the world.
Not sure if any of the above mentioned airlines have US based crews. But the opposition to NAI originated long before their stated desire to establish US bases. Do any US airlines have foreign based crews still? They have in the not too distant past.
While I am not privy to the upper end of salaries of European legacy pilots, from what I saw in my job search, pilot salaries in general are lower in Europe. But as I have stated before, I live quite comfortably and I have yet to meet a pilot in Europe who is not living comfortably, whether they fly for SAS, Jet Time, Norwegian, easyJet, Avion Express, WOW Air, Cimber, Aer Lingus or Thomas Cook, and regardless whether they live in Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Spain, Italy, Lithuania, Belgium or Ireland.
Not sure if any of the above mentioned airlines have US based crews. But the opposition to NAI originated long before their stated desire to establish US bases. Do any US airlines have foreign based crews still? They have in the not too distant past.
While I am not privy to the upper end of salaries of European legacy pilots, from what I saw in my job search, pilot salaries in general are lower in Europe. But as I have stated before, I live quite comfortably and I have yet to meet a pilot in Europe who is not living comfortably, whether they fly for SAS, Jet Time, Norwegian, easyJet, Avion Express, WOW Air, Cimber, Aer Lingus or Thomas Cook, and regardless whether they live in Iceland, Sweden, Denmark, UK, Spain, Italy, Lithuania, Belgium or Ireland.
I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.
If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.
02-20-2017, 10:14 AM
#47
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Joined APC: Jun 2010
Position: DOWNGRADE COMPLETE: Thanks Gary. Thanks SWAPA.
Posts: 6,613
Exactly ^^^^^. Our profession requires too much training, sacrifice and most importantly....RESPONSIBILITY to just "live comfortably". Electricians should live comfortably. Doctors, pilots, etc., should live well and be able to have financial peace of mind.
What other profession is given the "keys" to a 50-300 million dollar machine and the corresponding 50-450 lives that come with it? If you think that a narrowbody captain making in the low 100s with 12 days off a month is acceptable, then there really is something glaringly wrong with your sense of self-worth and you need to seek help.
What other profession is given the "keys" to a 50-300 million dollar machine and the corresponding 50-450 lives that come with it? If you think that a narrowbody captain making in the low 100s with 12 days off a month is acceptable, then there really is something glaringly wrong with your sense of self-worth and you need to seek help.
02-20-2017, 12:51 PM
#48
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2017
Posts: 8
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
Are you telling me a 787 FO making $5k a month pretax is living comfortably. That's impossible with a family.
I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.
If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.
I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.
If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.
02-20-2017, 01:19 PM
#49
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Center seat, doing loops to music
Posts: 825
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
Are you telling me a 787 FO making $5k a month pretax is living comfortably. That's impossible with a family.
I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.
If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.
I'm not talking about living comfortably anyway. I'm talking about getting rich. This job requires far to much training, travel away from home, and most importantly responsibility to have FOs that can't get by and captains that are just "comfortable". Why sell yourself short? The contract pilot scheme has taken away any leverage European pilots would have as group to make some real money. If it weren't for the paycheck I don't think most of us would come to work. So my goal is to make as much of it as humanly possible when I am at work. Anything that threatens to have me making less is the enemy.
If NAI came in here with industry leading wages, retirement, and work rules along with actual employees not outscourced labor with no bargaining power, I don't think anyone would have an issue. Problem is the whole scheme designed to push down wages and strip labor of any power. That's a problem.
The assertion comes off as disconnected and entitled, in a country of 320 Million people with a household income median of 60K and DECREASING not even as a function of inflation adjustment, but decreasing in gross value. Getting in front of the street and wanking about the loss of 300K income bracket attainment is not gonna get you anywhere. Society will call your bluff and right ricky tick. "Bye Felicia" kind of thing.
I would keep the income motivation canard to myself if I was advocating for US domestic pilot jobs. Use the safety and carnage angle, because if you go for the "income necessary to keep me interested", a Country chock full of poor people will call your bluff every day of the week and twice on Sunday. They buy that from healthcare providers, they'll never see you in the same light. Don't shoot the messenger, and I happen to agree with you that the math doesn't pencil out for 120k top out as a NB CA. That money is not worth it to me either for an onerously-traveling occupation. Sim building work maybe, but not with the kind of round-the-clock TAFB generally associated with airline work.
02-20-2017, 02:08 PM
#50
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Joined APC: May 2010
Position: Baja Vermont
Posts: 5,177
NAI will hire pilots w/o problem for the simple reason there are far more pilots than the really good legacies need or will need. It has always been such and will be such despite retirements. Loads of guys with marginal backgrounds or credentials Wong attract major US legacies hiring teams, they will go to fly the shiny new jet that pays something more than they have now. I spent a good potion of my career with some of them, especially EA replacement pilots. This's types will go and be proud of it. I guarantee!
GF
GF
