What “word”.....when TA1 💩 is flushed....

 

I’m against the TA, and will be a no vote, but if I were on the outside looking in I would expect TA2 within a couple years and also expect it to be better. Whether or not the union asks people not to apply may have some impact, but many will still come with high expectations.

 

The scope language in Spirits’ contact is awful. Ours is even worse. Here’s JetBlue’s scope. This committee needs to pay attention to this issue. A standard is set for all ALPA contracts. They voted for NO JETBLUE EXPRESS EVER on their first contract. We need to vote for NO FRONTIER EXPRESS EVER!


B. Scope


1. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, all flying conducted by or on behalf of the Company (including aircraft under the operational control of the Company) shall be performed by Pilots represented by the Association on the JetBlue Airways System Seniority list.


2. The Company will not enter into any “alter ego” or “double breasted” arrangement, or an agreement in which an affiliate performs Part 121 flying, unless such flying is performed by Pilots on the JetBlue System Seniority List under the terms of this Agreement, except for the period prior to the integration of the seniority lists of the two carriers as required by Section 1.E. of this Agreement.


3. A non-seniority list pilot may perform Test Flights. In addition, in the event no seniority list Pilot is on involuntary furlough, a non-seniority list pilot may perform non-revenue flying as provided below: a. Maintenance ferry flights for heavy maintenance to or from San Salvador, El Salvador (SAL). b. New aircraft delivery flights, provided a seniority list Pilot is a member of the crew. c. Maintenance ferry flights departing from a heavy maintenance facility. d. Maintenance ferry flights departing to a heavy maintenance facility provided the movement of one aircraft is connected with a planned movement and return to service of another aircraft from the heavy maintenance facility.


4. The Company may assign or subcontract revenue flying for up to ninety (90) days (subject to extension with the written consent of Association) to deal with an unanticipated FAA or aircraft manufacturer maintenance requirement or delivery delays caused by the manufacturer, provided no Pilot is furloughed as a result of such contracting. The Company shall provide notice to the Association prior to entering any agreement to assign or contract out revenue flying.

 

Spirit scope explicitly prohibits any alter-ego or express flying.

 

[QUOTE=Biffsteritis;2727017]Unfortunately, the pay tables are not the whole story.

Here’s how we stack up with our industry leading TA with Spirit’s.

Pay
F9 has slightly better rates, but all Spirit pilots get the following:
-A321 override regardless of the equipment they actually operate.
-International override of 8% to/from all destinations outside the US.
...

Unfortunately “domestic” flying encompasses most of our “outside the US”. That’s status quo from the 2010 contract.

Good luck with the fight from a NK no voter.

 

[QUOTE=lowandslow;2728510]Of our 24 international destinations we get paid international override for 14 of them. Island nations of the Caribbean north of the 15th parallel and Mexico are not considered international.

 

Hey Todd, and you can PM me if you like, but I’ll let everyone here know so let’s just get it out in public, are you a union guy who fancies himself being a management guys some day and you’re stepping on your fellow pilots heads, just to kiss Management bum, or are you really in the cubicle next to butthert?

I’ve seen this act before and it’s so pathetic. I get it that the union has signed papers agreeing to support the TA. In a perfect world, that would mean giving the pilots you represent “accurate” information and saying “yes” I think this is the best we can do. That is all you have to do to satisfy the legal agreement with Management and let the pilots talk amongst themselves and decide for themselves whether this agreement is acceptable.

If you’re a management type, which is what I’m leaning towards, and judging by what I’ve read, I’m thinking internish, maybe first or second year assistant to some inconsequential middle management type ( I have no idea how many levels of MGT F9 has, but I’m sure there are more guys getting paid very well for doing little over on tower road than there are guys getting paid well for getting the job done (Pilots), and keeping the operation running day in and day out.)

Give it a rest. Seriously. If you see information that is truly inaccurate, which I’m sure you have, ok...you can correct someone. But you and butthert, sitting here making shhhhhh....stuff up is truly pathetic and an embarrassment to this profession, no matter which side of the table you align with. (Unfortunately, even our union brethren find themselves aligning with management when they realize the disparity in income levels.)

And if you want to ask for an example of you guys making stuff up, the other day I saw BH trying to say that pilot costs were a mere drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things, or words to that effect. Someone correctly countered that labor costs were actually second, only to fuel costs.

When I read these posts from the obvious disrupters, it reminds me of a very dark time in my career. I had recently been recalled to Delta in the spring of 2005 after 3 years on furlough. The pilots, while I was out on the street had already agreed to (I think) a 28% pay cut. Now it’s late summer of 2005 and Delta was telling us they needed more. I don’t remember the number but it equated to a cumulative 42% pay cut. That doesn’t include all the back sliding and down grades that further affected income and QOL. Whenever I was on our forum, there were these recently signed up guys that were always there trying to maintain calm and trying to control the flow of information. They kept saying “Read the TA, talk to your family, and cast your vote, based on what is best for you and your family.”

One day I responded and said I gathered all the information and I was voting NO! These guys went crazy, saying stuff like “but you don’t HAVE all the information, you haven’t seen the fleet plan like we have, as soon as this contract is agreed to, we are going to place the largest aircraft order in the history of the Airline industry. You have to trust us! That was my own union representation talking to me. Sometimes I wonder, and I hate to be so cynical of mankind sometimes, what’s in it for them? Why do they sometimes seem so motivated to help bad deals go through? At that time we were weeks away from going BK, which we did and then the A plan pensions went poof on top of half the pay we had agreed to.

To that last point of what’s in it for them though, our last contract negotiation, I really wondered what management offered our MEC Chairman, when, after years of clawing our way back up, and being told we will get em next time or this sets us up perfectly for our next contract, that our first TA was severely lacking, and when confronted about it during a road show in Peachtree City, (The most welcoming and company friendly audience he was going to find), our MEC Chairman started screaming at his pilots that if we voted it down, the next step was a PEB! He literally screamed it at his membership. The first thing I asked myself is “What’s in it for him, that he’s so angry?” I hate feeling that way, but we are all driven by what’s best for ourselves and our family. Was he bought and paid for? I don’t know but we were making $5 Billion a year and he wanted us to accept rates and work rules way worse (when adjusted for inflation) than we had in 2001.

I don’t know what to tell you guys. Sorry for hijacking your thread. The entire industry supports you. The raises are substantial. There is no denying that. Is it enough? That’s your decision, and rates aren’t everything. I’m 48, if I was there, I’d be concerned about LTD which isn’t own occupation. My entire point, which I made a long story longer, is that every contract negotiation I can remember since 2005, when the TA is out there for the membership, there are always several Buttherts and ToddChavez’s out there spreading “FUD”. Fear, Uncertainty, and Doubt. I haven’t been here in a while but from what I’ve seen, any negative posts get their treatment. Sometimes subtle, sometimes not. I don’t know who they’re working for but it isn’t the Pilots. Good luck and vote the way you want. Don’t try to change someone else’s opinion, and don’t let them change yours. Everyone gets one vote.

 

The best thing posted on an F9 board in a long time. Thanks for sharing your insight and we appreciate your support and interest in us.

 

I second that. Thank you Big E 757.

 

You work for a publicly traded corporation. We work for a private equity firm. Apples and oranges. But a very inspiring story from your high perch at DAL. Thanks