Some perspective on what we do
03-25-2025 | 06:55 PM
#71
A321
Joined: May 2019
Posts: 244
Likes: 35
NO NO NO!!!!
So in the game of negotiations, the LAST one to negotiate does NOT look to obtain the average of those before them. They seek to EXCEED them. Getting a higher rate means all those w/ SNAP UP CLAUSES will get one as well.
Why the F are we so adament about receiving even just $0.01 less? Are we less of a pilot force? Is it because our airlines sucks in just about every customer service metric that we assume that means we must also in pilot pay? We don't have S to do with that (and in fact, are part of the reason why the airline has any successas at all).
Where in the world does this consistent feeling of "Well, I'd like to get what everyone else has but if it's just a little less, that's OK" come from? I hear it somewhat often on the line.
F THAT !!!!!! F THAT COMPLETELY.
YOU ARE A HIGHLY TRAINED, HIGHLY SKILLED, MOST ASSUREDLY CAPABLE Airbus 320/321 pilot who has to deal w/ SO MUCH MORE S than just about everyone else in the industry. You fly w/ LIDO instead of Jepps or Foreflight. You carry 20-30% more passengers and carry lower paying (Greyhound) level customers who are more prone to destruptive behavior than any other airline. You are subject to less training for more safety averse routes/special qualification airports. Your average delay time is 3rd highest in the industry and your airline was voted the 2nd worst airline experience (behind WestJet) in North America.
You do SO MUCH for a management staff that does not give a S about you. The continually delay giving you a raise. They change flying models to suit their desires which ends up with YOU having to pay more in terms of commuting costs and missed perdiem. They purposefully design a network and pairing groups to promote inefficient trips to include 10 hour 3 day flights. Hell, they even have the audacity to send out company videos from the VP of Flt Ops or CEO telling you that they want to give you fair deal but your UNION is stopping that...
I have mentioned MANY times, the only reason F9 is in business today is because of the seniority based system - without it, the company would've folded long ago.
DO NOT VOTE "Yes" on ANYTHING less than $1 more of the A321 rate being paid to each and every UA/DL/AA pilot. Yes, I wrote MORE THAN the going rate. VOTE "No" on ANY contract that does not include a snap up clause/provision. AND absoletly, positively, do NOT vote on any type of contract that promises anything (I don't care if the rate is $500/hr) w/o an IRONCLAD grievance policy that requires the company to address every single grievance within the next "cycle" or the grievance is automatically granted to the pilot. Without that, they company will promise the moon and deliver S and tell you to grieve it....
YOU ARE WORTH IT. YOU HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET WHERE YOU ARE. YOU ARE NOT LESS THAN ANY OTHER PILOT IN AMERICA!!!!
https://www.travelawaits.com/2707792...cancellations/
https://bestlifeonline.com/news-worst-airlines-us-data/
So in the game of negotiations, the LAST one to negotiate does NOT look to obtain the average of those before them. They seek to EXCEED them. Getting a higher rate means all those w/ SNAP UP CLAUSES will get one as well.
Why the F are we so adament about receiving even just $0.01 less? Are we less of a pilot force? Is it because our airlines sucks in just about every customer service metric that we assume that means we must also in pilot pay? We don't have S to do with that (and in fact, are part of the reason why the airline has any successas at all).
Where in the world does this consistent feeling of "Well, I'd like to get what everyone else has but if it's just a little less, that's OK" come from? I hear it somewhat often on the line.
F THAT !!!!!! F THAT COMPLETELY.
YOU ARE A HIGHLY TRAINED, HIGHLY SKILLED, MOST ASSUREDLY CAPABLE Airbus 320/321 pilot who has to deal w/ SO MUCH MORE S than just about everyone else in the industry. You fly w/ LIDO instead of Jepps or Foreflight. You carry 20-30% more passengers and carry lower paying (Greyhound) level customers who are more prone to destruptive behavior than any other airline. You are subject to less training for more safety averse routes/special qualification airports. Your average delay time is 3rd highest in the industry and your airline was voted the 2nd worst airline experience (behind WestJet) in North America.
You do SO MUCH for a management staff that does not give a S about you. The continually delay giving you a raise. They change flying models to suit their desires which ends up with YOU having to pay more in terms of commuting costs and missed perdiem. They purposefully design a network and pairing groups to promote inefficient trips to include 10 hour 3 day flights. Hell, they even have the audacity to send out company videos from the VP of Flt Ops or CEO telling you that they want to give you fair deal but your UNION is stopping that...
I have mentioned MANY times, the only reason F9 is in business today is because of the seniority based system - without it, the company would've folded long ago.
DO NOT VOTE "Yes" on ANYTHING less than $1 more of the A321 rate being paid to each and every UA/DL/AA pilot. Yes, I wrote MORE THAN the going rate. VOTE "No" on ANY contract that does not include a snap up clause/provision. AND absoletly, positively, do NOT vote on any type of contract that promises anything (I don't care if the rate is $500/hr) w/o an IRONCLAD grievance policy that requires the company to address every single grievance within the next "cycle" or the grievance is automatically granted to the pilot. Without that, they company will promise the moon and deliver S and tell you to grieve it....
YOU ARE WORTH IT. YOU HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET WHERE YOU ARE. YOU ARE NOT LESS THAN ANY OTHER PILOT IN AMERICA!!!!
https://www.travelawaits.com/2707792...cancellations/
https://bestlifeonline.com/news-worst-airlines-us-data/
I agree with you about a lot. Except your ability to read. I said you deserve the averages plus” a pay rise adjusted for inflation” that means to me to match Southwest rate of 379.10 for top rate plus 4% back dated to last year. lol. So $394.26 retro active to last year. Those are the new starting rates. Plus they get 2% Mbcp so we should get that and the 18% DC.
We are already behind. They need to pay us a lot to just to catch up. Management doesn’t get a nickel less than matching plus a pay rise adjusted. See above for my expectations.
every day the company avoids a contract we demand more. The union should be adjusting their negotiations the same way. Every time they meet up at mediation they should have a new minimum pay which is higher than the last time they were at mediation.
you deserve more.
03-26-2025 | 07:49 AM
#72
Line Holder
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 1,950
Likes: 96
From: Lineholder
I agree with you about a lot. Except your ability to read. I said you deserve the averages plus” a pay rise adjusted for inflation” that means to me to match Southwest rate of 379.10 for top rate plus 4% back dated to last year. lol. So $394.26 retro active to last year. Those are the new starting rates. Plus they get 2% Mbcp so we should get that and the 18% DC.
My post was a response to the quote:
Additionally when comparing metrics we use these carriers :”Amcrican Airlines, Delta Air Lines, United Airlines, Southwest Airlines, Alaska Airlines, JetBlue Airways, Hawaiian Airlines, Spirit Airlines, and Allegiant Air.”
so when we are being compensated we should receive the average of those carrier rates excluding those still negotiating. With a pay rise adjusted for inflationary increases.
so when we are being compensated we should receive the average of those carrier rates excluding those still negotiating. With a pay rise adjusted for inflationary increases.
Well, according to the APLA contract comparison for Jan 1, 2025, the YR 1 CA pay for AA/DL/UA is $344.25. As you mentioned, the SW pay is higher $347.76. The pay for HA, AK, B6 and NK are lower at $313.98, 332.91, 326.09 and 270.17, respectively. All pilot pay for each company follows a similar trend across yearly pay bands (for both CA and FO) and keep in mind these are 2025 #s (pay rates increase yearly for inflation to the end of the contract). I'm unsure of what other inflationary pay raise you might have been referring to but, of course, that would need to be included. NOTE: Allegiant's #s aren't included in the comparison and despite your inclusion in your quote, I ignored (as they are paid less than even us).
The AVERAGE of AA/DL/UA/SW/HA/AK/B6 and NK pay is less than what is paid to AA/DL/UA. Even when you don't consider NK or B6 (still negotiating or whatever they're doing), SW is only a few dollars more (between 2-6) for each year, while HA and AK are both over $10 less per year. At the end of the day, we're discussing pennies/small dollar amounts, but i just want to make myself clear. I do NOT want AVERAGE of the TOP 9 or 8 or 4 or even 2 airlines. I want THE TOP. I'm pretty sure everyone else will snap up and we'll be the top until everyone renegotiates again (DL in a year I'm told).
With pilot pay, to me, there's a pride element to it, a retro compensation element to it but also a "statement" element to it. We have been compensated less since roughly 9/11 (that was in 2001) for doing the same work. We have endured more change, a more hostile work environment in terms of mgt vs. labor and we've been considered LESS THAN by the industry because our airline is less than. That doesn't sit well with me. When UA was negotiating and DL came out w/ their rates, UA pilots didn't say "Hey, yeah we want the average now" or even "we want what DL got." They negotiated for MORE THAN DL. In turn, DL snapped up. That's a win-win. How is that not evident to our pilot force?
This mgt team has shown me 2 main things - they really don't know how to run an airline from a operationally superior standpoint (no wifi, network, haphazard customer service policies, etc.) AND they really don't give 2 sh!ts about its labor.
TBH, that is actually fine w/ me. If this company made $1 profit per quarter but stayed in business, I'd be fine with that as long as we're paid more than everyone else. The obvious lack of business acumen/savvy, disdane for my contributions to the company as well as ownerships continuance to keep an obvious buffoon in place as CEO aren't anything I set up, allow or control. The company is what it is and I need to compensated for having to DEAL with what it is. People, the industry, whoever can say what they want about on time performance, other metrics, etc. but as long as they're saying "But at least they pay their pilots . . ." then I'll do the most in terms of trying to make this a better place.
As of now, I do my job - the main part of which, hopefully in a year or two, will be to vote down any POS TA that has lesser rates.
03-26-2025 | 08:00 AM
#73
On Reserve
Joined: May 2024
Posts: 106
Likes: 1
NO NO NO!!!!
So in the game of negotiations, the LAST one to negotiate does NOT look to obtain the average of those before them. They seek to EXCEED them. Getting a higher rate means all those w/ SNAP UP CLAUSES will get one as well.
Why the F are we so adament about receiving even just $0.01 less? Are we less of a pilot force? Is it because our airlines sucks in just about every customer service metric that we assume that means we must also in pilot pay? We don't have S to do with that (and in fact, are part of the reason why the airline has any successas at all).
Where in the world does this consistent feeling of "Well, I'd like to get what everyone else has but if it's just a little less, that's OK" come from? I hear it somewhat often on the line.
F THAT !!!!!! F THAT COMPLETELY.
YOU ARE A HIGHLY TRAINED, HIGHLY SKILLED, MOST ASSUREDLY CAPABLE Airbus 320/321 pilot who has to deal w/ SO MUCH MORE S than just about everyone else in the industry. You fly w/ LIDO instead of Jepps or Foreflight. You carry 20-30% more passengers and carry lower paying (Greyhound) level customers who are more prone to destruptive behavior than any other airline. You are subject to less training for more safety averse routes/special qualification airports. Your average delay time is 3rd highest in the industry and your airline was voted the 2nd worst airline experience (behind WestJet) in North America.
You do SO MUCH for a management staff that does not give a S about you. The continually delay giving you a raise. They change flying models to suit their desires which ends up with YOU having to pay more in terms of commuting costs and missed perdiem. They purposefully design a network and pairing groups to promote inefficient trips to include 10 hour 3 day flights. Hell, they even have the audacity to send out company videos from the VP of Flt Ops or CEO telling you that they want to give you fair deal but your UNION is stopping that...
I have mentioned MANY times, the only reason F9 is in business today is because of the seniority based system - without it, the company would've folded long ago.
DO NOT VOTE "Yes" on ANYTHING less than $1 more of the A321 rate being paid to each and every UA/DL/AA pilot. Yes, I wrote MORE THAN the going rate. VOTE "No" on ANY contract that does not include a snap up clause/provision. AND absoletly, positively, do NOT vote on any type of contract that promises anything (I don't care if the rate is $500/hr) w/o an IRONCLAD grievance policy that requires the company to address every single grievance within the next "cycle" or the grievance is automatically granted to the pilot. Without that, they company will promise the moon and deliver S and tell you to grieve it....
YOU ARE WORTH IT. YOU HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET WHERE YOU ARE. YOU ARE NOT LESS THAN ANY OTHER PILOT IN AMERICA!!!!
https://www.travelawaits.com/2707792...cancellations/
https://bestlifeonline.com/news-worst-airlines-us-data/
So in the game of negotiations, the LAST one to negotiate does NOT look to obtain the average of those before them. They seek to EXCEED them. Getting a higher rate means all those w/ SNAP UP CLAUSES will get one as well.
Why the F are we so adament about receiving even just $0.01 less? Are we less of a pilot force? Is it because our airlines sucks in just about every customer service metric that we assume that means we must also in pilot pay? We don't have S to do with that (and in fact, are part of the reason why the airline has any successas at all).
Where in the world does this consistent feeling of "Well, I'd like to get what everyone else has but if it's just a little less, that's OK" come from? I hear it somewhat often on the line.
F THAT !!!!!! F THAT COMPLETELY.
YOU ARE A HIGHLY TRAINED, HIGHLY SKILLED, MOST ASSUREDLY CAPABLE Airbus 320/321 pilot who has to deal w/ SO MUCH MORE S than just about everyone else in the industry. You fly w/ LIDO instead of Jepps or Foreflight. You carry 20-30% more passengers and carry lower paying (Greyhound) level customers who are more prone to destruptive behavior than any other airline. You are subject to less training for more safety averse routes/special qualification airports. Your average delay time is 3rd highest in the industry and your airline was voted the 2nd worst airline experience (behind WestJet) in North America.
You do SO MUCH for a management staff that does not give a S about you. The continually delay giving you a raise. They change flying models to suit their desires which ends up with YOU having to pay more in terms of commuting costs and missed perdiem. They purposefully design a network and pairing groups to promote inefficient trips to include 10 hour 3 day flights. Hell, they even have the audacity to send out company videos from the VP of Flt Ops or CEO telling you that they want to give you fair deal but your UNION is stopping that...
I have mentioned MANY times, the only reason F9 is in business today is because of the seniority based system - without it, the company would've folded long ago.
DO NOT VOTE "Yes" on ANYTHING less than $1 more of the A321 rate being paid to each and every UA/DL/AA pilot. Yes, I wrote MORE THAN the going rate. VOTE "No" on ANY contract that does not include a snap up clause/provision. AND absoletly, positively, do NOT vote on any type of contract that promises anything (I don't care if the rate is $500/hr) w/o an IRONCLAD grievance policy that requires the company to address every single grievance within the next "cycle" or the grievance is automatically granted to the pilot. Without that, they company will promise the moon and deliver S and tell you to grieve it....
YOU ARE WORTH IT. YOU HAVE WORKED HARD TO GET WHERE YOU ARE. YOU ARE NOT LESS THAN ANY OTHER PILOT IN AMERICA!!!!
https://www.travelawaits.com/2707792...cancellations/
https://bestlifeonline.com/news-worst-airlines-us-data/
03-26-2025 | 08:08 AM
#74
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 44,882
Likes: 682
From: Engines Turn or People Swim
You bring up some good points - our pay does seem to be tied to capacity but you must also look at revenue generation. Many WBs are literally carrying tons of cargo for big bucks and premium international seats go for mutiple thousands of dollars. So if you just look at WB seats it might not be telling the whole picture. With that said you guys should definitely shoot to match the legacy NB aircraft on pay rates.
Scoop
Scoop
But I'd agree there's room for improvement... at AS we are historically not very big on premium pax revenue, many of them are mileage upgrades. I'm not too far behind your CA TOS, and I'm a not-TOS NB FO. I might be *at* your CA TOS if you include 401k DC.
03-26-2025 | 10:43 AM
#76
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Feb 2014
Posts: 3,576
Likes: 47
From: Semi-Retired...
We all know contracts are not only good/bad by pay rates, but also by the "compensation" in other areas such as scheduling, vacation, retirement, etc.
But some perspective on what we do compared to our peers at legacies and other majors that it seems not many people know (I know you probably know, but a lot of pilots dont bother to look) just how many lives we have in our hands on a daily basis compared to other pilots. Some younger and more new/junior pilots I talk to seem to not grasp just how much they are doing at work and think they are less than a legacy pilot because "they might be stuck at a ULCC for the rest of their career" like they are missing something.
Our aircraft, A320 and A321neo/ceo, we carry 186 (soon to be 182 with those new seats?) and 240/230 (236/226) respectively. The recent CBAs by other airlines, all have increasing pay based on seating of aircraft, this is evident by their various pay rates for their 320, 321, 321neo, 220-100/300, etc.
Delta's 12 year CA on the Airbus A320 will soon make 388/hr in 2026. Their 2nd year FO will make 192/hr. Their 321neo will pay 12 year CA 404/hr and 2nd year FO 199/hr. Their Airbus A330 12 year CAs will get 484/hr and their 2nd year FO will be at 239/hr.
We currently are capped out making 270/hr as CA and our 2nd year FOs make 118/hr.
Delta carries 157 pax in their A320. We carry 186. Delta carries 194 in their A321neo and we carry 240. Delta's A330-200 carries 223 pax. Their longboi 757s (300s) carry 234 pax (same pay as their 321Neo), Their 767-300 carries 226 and their 767-400 carries 238.
You carry more passengers than MOST of those widebodies that you see, so just think about that when we see numbers for a new contract or when you consider your "worth as a pilot" since that seems to be something people at majors/ULCCs/LCCs worry about. (oh yeah, and we do more with less than other airlines that I know of)
But some perspective on what we do compared to our peers at legacies and other majors that it seems not many people know (I know you probably know, but a lot of pilots dont bother to look) just how many lives we have in our hands on a daily basis compared to other pilots. Some younger and more new/junior pilots I talk to seem to not grasp just how much they are doing at work and think they are less than a legacy pilot because "they might be stuck at a ULCC for the rest of their career" like they are missing something.
Our aircraft, A320 and A321neo/ceo, we carry 186 (soon to be 182 with those new seats?) and 240/230 (236/226) respectively. The recent CBAs by other airlines, all have increasing pay based on seating of aircraft, this is evident by their various pay rates for their 320, 321, 321neo, 220-100/300, etc.
Delta's 12 year CA on the Airbus A320 will soon make 388/hr in 2026. Their 2nd year FO will make 192/hr. Their 321neo will pay 12 year CA 404/hr and 2nd year FO 199/hr. Their Airbus A330 12 year CAs will get 484/hr and their 2nd year FO will be at 239/hr.
We currently are capped out making 270/hr as CA and our 2nd year FOs make 118/hr.
Delta carries 157 pax in their A320. We carry 186. Delta carries 194 in their A321neo and we carry 240. Delta's A330-200 carries 223 pax. Their longboi 757s (300s) carry 234 pax (same pay as their 321Neo), Their 767-300 carries 226 and their 767-400 carries 238.
You carry more passengers than MOST of those widebodies that you see, so just think about that when we see numbers for a new contract or when you consider your "worth as a pilot" since that seems to be something people at majors/ULCCs/LCCs worry about. (oh yeah, and we do more with less than other airlines that I know of)
that 1 first class international seat at the legacy costs as much as 60 of your seats at typical F9 ticket prices.
03-26-2025 | 11:13 AM
#77
On Reserve
Joined: Jan 2025
Posts: 83
Likes: 11
can you bid to the 777 or 787 international? Comparing a ULCC to a legacy because you fly the same of 1 aircraft type in one region of the planet is funny. Keep posting.
that 1 first class international seat at the legacy costs as much as 60 of your seats at typical F9 ticket prices.
that 1 first class international seat at the legacy costs as much as 60 of your seats at typical F9 ticket prices.
03-26-2025 | 12:14 PM
#78
Line Holder
Joined: Sep 2020
Posts: 1,571
Likes: 353
Perhaps I missed something..
My post was a response to the quote:
That last sentence is telling . . . the AVERAGE OF THOSE (9) CARRIER RATES.
Well, according to the APLA contract comparison for Jan 1, 2025, the YR 1 CA pay for AA/DL/UA is $344.25. As you mentioned, the SW pay is higher $347.76. The pay for HA, AK, B6 and NK are lower at $313.98, 332.91, 326.09 and 270.17, respectively. All pilot pay for each company follows a similar trend across yearly pay bands (for both CA and FO) and keep in mind these are 2025 #s (pay rates increase yearly for inflation to the end of the contract). I'm unsure of what other inflationary pay raise you might have been referring to but, of course, that would need to be included. NOTE: Allegiant's #s aren't included in the comparison and despite your inclusion in your quote, I ignored (as they are paid less than even us).
The AVERAGE of AA/DL/UA/SW/HA/AK/B6 and NK pay is less than what is paid to AA/DL/UA. Even when you don't consider NK or B6 (still negotiating or whatever they're doing), SW is only a few dollars more (between 2-6) for each year, while HA and AK are both over $10 less per year. At the end of the day, we're discussing pennies/small dollar amounts, but i just want to make myself clear. I do NOT want AVERAGE of the TOP 9 or 8 or 4 or even 2 airlines. I want THE TOP. I'm pretty sure everyone else will snap up and we'll be the top until everyone renegotiates again (DL in a year I'm told).
With pilot pay, to me, there's a pride element to it, a retro compensation element to it but also a "statement" element to it. We have been compensated less since roughly 9/11 (that was in 2001) for doing the same work. We have endured more change, a more hostile work environment in terms of mgt vs. labor and we've been considered LESS THAN by the industry because our airline is less than. That doesn't sit well with me. When UA was negotiating and DL came out w/ their rates, UA pilots didn't say "Hey, yeah we want the average now" or even "we want what DL got." They negotiated for MORE THAN DL. In turn, DL snapped up. That's a win-win. How is that not evident to our pilot force?
This mgt team has shown me 2 main things - they really don't know how to run an airline from a operationally superior standpoint (no wifi, network, haphazard customer service policies, etc.) AND they really don't give 2 sh!ts about its labor.
TBH, that is actually fine w/ me. If this company made $1 profit per quarter but stayed in business, I'd be fine with that as long as we're paid more than everyone else. The obvious lack of business acumen/savvy, disdane for my contributions to the company as well as ownerships continuance to keep an obvious buffoon in place as CEO aren't anything I set up, allow or control. The company is what it is and I need to compensated for having to DEAL with what it is. People, the industry, whoever can say what they want about on time performance, other metrics, etc. but as long as they're saying "But at least they pay their pilots . . ." then I'll do the most in terms of trying to make this a better place.
As of now, I do my job - the main part of which, hopefully in a year or two, will be to vote down any POS TA that has lesser rates.
My post was a response to the quote:
That last sentence is telling . . . the AVERAGE OF THOSE (9) CARRIER RATES.
Well, according to the APLA contract comparison for Jan 1, 2025, the YR 1 CA pay for AA/DL/UA is $344.25. As you mentioned, the SW pay is higher $347.76. The pay for HA, AK, B6 and NK are lower at $313.98, 332.91, 326.09 and 270.17, respectively. All pilot pay for each company follows a similar trend across yearly pay bands (for both CA and FO) and keep in mind these are 2025 #s (pay rates increase yearly for inflation to the end of the contract). I'm unsure of what other inflationary pay raise you might have been referring to but, of course, that would need to be included. NOTE: Allegiant's #s aren't included in the comparison and despite your inclusion in your quote, I ignored (as they are paid less than even us).
The AVERAGE of AA/DL/UA/SW/HA/AK/B6 and NK pay is less than what is paid to AA/DL/UA. Even when you don't consider NK or B6 (still negotiating or whatever they're doing), SW is only a few dollars more (between 2-6) for each year, while HA and AK are both over $10 less per year. At the end of the day, we're discussing pennies/small dollar amounts, but i just want to make myself clear. I do NOT want AVERAGE of the TOP 9 or 8 or 4 or even 2 airlines. I want THE TOP. I'm pretty sure everyone else will snap up and we'll be the top until everyone renegotiates again (DL in a year I'm told).
With pilot pay, to me, there's a pride element to it, a retro compensation element to it but also a "statement" element to it. We have been compensated less since roughly 9/11 (that was in 2001) for doing the same work. We have endured more change, a more hostile work environment in terms of mgt vs. labor and we've been considered LESS THAN by the industry because our airline is less than. That doesn't sit well with me. When UA was negotiating and DL came out w/ their rates, UA pilots didn't say "Hey, yeah we want the average now" or even "we want what DL got." They negotiated for MORE THAN DL. In turn, DL snapped up. That's a win-win. How is that not evident to our pilot force?
This mgt team has shown me 2 main things - they really don't know how to run an airline from a operationally superior standpoint (no wifi, network, haphazard customer service policies, etc.) AND they really don't give 2 sh!ts about its labor.
TBH, that is actually fine w/ me. If this company made $1 profit per quarter but stayed in business, I'd be fine with that as long as we're paid more than everyone else. The obvious lack of business acumen/savvy, disdane for my contributions to the company as well as ownerships continuance to keep an obvious buffoon in place as CEO aren't anything I set up, allow or control. The company is what it is and I need to compensated for having to DEAL with what it is. People, the industry, whoever can say what they want about on time performance, other metrics, etc. but as long as they're saying "But at least they pay their pilots . . ." then I'll do the most in terms of trying to make this a better place.
As of now, I do my job - the main part of which, hopefully in a year or two, will be to vote down any POS TA that has lesser rates.
Frontier had $3.77B in revenue in 2024. With 2,200 (I'm guessing) pilots that means that each pilot is responsible for $1.71M in revenue.
Southwest had $27.5B in revenue in 2024. With 10,000 pilots (also guessing) that is $2.75M in revenue per pilot.
United had $57B revenue in 2024. With 17,000 pilots (close guess) that's $3.35M revenue per pilot.
Alaska generates over $3M in revenue per pilot and Jetblue about $2.1M.
Unions use the leverage they have to decide a pay scheme for pilots. Its harder to compare a NB pilot at Delta or United to an LCC that generates far less revenue per pilot. Certainly the WB planes at UAL and DAL generate far more revenue than a NB plane, but the union pay scheme sort of averages all that out. There is no way United or Delta could afford to pay its NB pilots what they get paid now without those WB planes flying much higher revenue per pax plus cargo.
I don't believe that your management is going to agree to pilot compensation rates that give them a $1 profit. If management agreed to pay 100% of 2024 profits to its pilots (its most profitable year since 2019), it would have resulted in roughly $38k per pilot.
While everything you are saying is true and your frustration is understandable, the people you are negotiating with are also looking at trying to run a profitable business in a historically ultra-competive industry.
03-26-2025 | 01:14 PM
#79
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 2,753
Likes: 57
Everything you are saying is true and if I were at Frontier I'd want the same. The problem is the revenue compared to other airlines.
Frontier had $3.77B in revenue in 2024. With 2,200 (I'm guessing) pilots that means that each pilot is responsible for $1.71M in revenue.
Southwest had $27.5B in revenue in 2024. With 10,000 pilots (also guessing) that is $2.75M in revenue per pilot.
United had $57B revenue in 2024. With 17,000 pilots (close guess) that's $3.35M revenue per pilot.
Alaska generates over $3M in revenue per pilot and Jetblue about $2.1M.
Unions use the leverage they have to decide a pay scheme for pilots. Its harder to compare a NB pilot at Delta or United to an LCC that generates far less revenue per pilot. Certainly the WB planes at UAL and DAL generate far more revenue than a NB plane, but the union pay scheme sort of averages all that out. There is no way United or Delta could afford to pay its NB pilots what they get paid now without those WB planes flying much higher revenue per pax plus cargo.
I don't believe that your management is going to agree to pilot compensation rates that give them a $1 profit. If management agreed to pay 100% of 2024 profits to its pilots (its most profitable year since 2019), it would have resulted in roughly $38k per pilot.
While everything you are saying is true and your frustration is understandable, the people you are negotiating with are also looking at trying to run a profitable business in a historically ultra-competive industry.
Frontier had $3.77B in revenue in 2024. With 2,200 (I'm guessing) pilots that means that each pilot is responsible for $1.71M in revenue.
Southwest had $27.5B in revenue in 2024. With 10,000 pilots (also guessing) that is $2.75M in revenue per pilot.
United had $57B revenue in 2024. With 17,000 pilots (close guess) that's $3.35M revenue per pilot.
Alaska generates over $3M in revenue per pilot and Jetblue about $2.1M.
Unions use the leverage they have to decide a pay scheme for pilots. Its harder to compare a NB pilot at Delta or United to an LCC that generates far less revenue per pilot. Certainly the WB planes at UAL and DAL generate far more revenue than a NB plane, but the union pay scheme sort of averages all that out. There is no way United or Delta could afford to pay its NB pilots what they get paid now without those WB planes flying much higher revenue per pax plus cargo.
I don't believe that your management is going to agree to pilot compensation rates that give them a $1 profit. If management agreed to pay 100% of 2024 profits to its pilots (its most profitable year since 2019), it would have resulted in roughly $38k per pilot.
While everything you are saying is true and your frustration is understandable, the people you are negotiating with are also looking at trying to run a profitable business in a historically ultra-competive industry.
The NMB recognizes and agrees with market rate comparisons across us carriers as the going rates. All this about more seats, premium seats or credit cards is irrelevant.
That doesn’t mean we will get released from mediation. It just means they agree with our pay rate position at the bargaining table.
Last edited by fcoolaiddrinker; 03-26-2025 at 01:42 PM.
03-26-2025 | 01:31 PM
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Everything you are saying is true and if I were at Frontier I'd want the same. The problem is the revenue compared to other airlines.
Frontier had $3.77B in revenue in 2024. With 2,200 (I'm guessing) pilots that means that each pilot is responsible for $1.71M in revenue.
Southwest had $27.5B in revenue in 2024. With 10,000 pilots (also guessing) that is $2.75M in revenue per pilot.
United had $57B revenue in 2024. With 17,000 pilots (close guess) that's $3.35M revenue per pilot.
Alaska generates over $3M in revenue per pilot and Jetblue about $2.1M.
Unions use the leverage they have to decide a pay scheme for pilots. Its harder to compare a NB pilot at Delta or United to an LCC that generates far less revenue per pilot. Certainly the WB planes at UAL and DAL generate far more revenue than a NB plane, but the union pay scheme sort of averages all that out. There is no way United or Delta could afford to pay its NB pilots what they get paid now without those WB planes flying much higher revenue per pax plus cargo.
I don't believe that your management is going to agree to pilot compensation rates that give them a $1 profit. If management agreed to pay 100% of 2024 profits to its pilots (its most profitable year since 2019), it would have resulted in roughly $38k per pilot.
While everything you are saying is true and your frustration is understandable, the people you are negotiating with are also looking at trying to run a profitable business in a historically ultra-competive industry.
Frontier had $3.77B in revenue in 2024. With 2,200 (I'm guessing) pilots that means that each pilot is responsible for $1.71M in revenue.
Southwest had $27.5B in revenue in 2024. With 10,000 pilots (also guessing) that is $2.75M in revenue per pilot.
United had $57B revenue in 2024. With 17,000 pilots (close guess) that's $3.35M revenue per pilot.
Alaska generates over $3M in revenue per pilot and Jetblue about $2.1M.
Unions use the leverage they have to decide a pay scheme for pilots. Its harder to compare a NB pilot at Delta or United to an LCC that generates far less revenue per pilot. Certainly the WB planes at UAL and DAL generate far more revenue than a NB plane, but the union pay scheme sort of averages all that out. There is no way United or Delta could afford to pay its NB pilots what they get paid now without those WB planes flying much higher revenue per pax plus cargo.
I don't believe that your management is going to agree to pilot compensation rates that give them a $1 profit. If management agreed to pay 100% of 2024 profits to its pilots (its most profitable year since 2019), it would have resulted in roughly $38k per pilot.
While everything you are saying is true and your frustration is understandable, the people you are negotiating with are also looking at trying to run a profitable business in a historically ultra-competive industry.
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