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Old 06-25-2018, 12:35 PM
  #6821  
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Originally Posted by pilotpayne
Yes yes it is.


00:59 is another money maker. By far the earliest new day of any airline.

If it ends up meaning they won’t build late release trips(2100-2300) then great. Now we have more commutable trips.


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Old 06-25-2018, 12:41 PM
  #6822  
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Originally Posted by Bozo the pilot
Perfectly summed up train- and to think we've bickered before
These guys would be pi$$ed no matter what.
Wonder if Bdriver, POG and BeatNavy are going to the roadshows?
Ill see you all there and I hope you hammer the mec for direct answers- Just be prepared for some logical responses.
Not perfect, but wait to weigh this TA until you can at least understand 20% of it.
Good luck all.
Why wouldn’t I go to a roadshow? Just because I can identify deficiencies in bullet points and discuss them doesn’t negate my desire (or duty) to go to a roadshow, or read the full thing, or at least most sections, several times before I vote. Let me ask you this. How involved are you with this process? Are you a P2P guy? Have you talked to the NC for hours asking questions on the phone and in person at union meetings? I have. And just because many of us can identify and discuss weak areas doesn’t mean we are auto no votes.

You keep touting this “go to a roadshow and read the full TA” to anyone who says anything negative about the TA. Are you implying that with the 3 page bullet points, 18 page bullet points, implementation bullet points, and updated CCG, you can’t see about 95% of where this contract lies in its totality, and enough to debate the pros and cons? There won’t be anything cosmic in the full language or at roadshows. The majority of the details are out. The hundreds of other pages will expand on the bullet points, but most likely won’t make them any better or add value. They are vitally important, because loose language is where the company can exploit us, but don’t count on 200-300 pages of language adding any value to this TA over what the bullet points list. Yes, go to a road show and read all of the TA. But thinking either will magically make this TA any better is crazy.

5 members of the MEC who read the whole thing, spent quality time with the NC and other ALPA SMEs, voted no. That’s significant.
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Old 06-25-2018, 12:47 PM
  #6823  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy
Why wouldn’t I go to a roadshow? Just because I can identify deficiencies in bullet points and discuss them doesn’t negate my desire (or duty) to go to a roadshow, or read the full thing, or at least most sections, several times before I vote. Let me ask you this. How involved are you with this process? Are you a P2P guy? Have you talked to the NC for hours asking questions on the phone and in person at union meetings? I have. And just because many of us can identify and discuss weak areas doesn’t mean we are auto no votes.



You keep touting this “go to a roadshow and read the full TA” to anyone who says anything negative about the TA. Are you implying that with the 3 page bullet points, 18 page bullet points, implementation bullet points, and updated CCG, you can’t see about 95% of where this contract lies in its totality, and enough to debate the pros and cons? There won’t be anything cosmic in the full language or at roadshows. The majority of the details are out. The hundreds of other pages will expand on the bullet points, but most likely won’t make them any better or add value. They are vitally important, because loose language is where the company can exploit us, but don’t count on 200-300 pages of language adding any value to this TA over what the bullet points list. Yes, go to a road show and read all of the TA. But thinking either will magically make this TA any better is crazy.



5 members of the MEC who read the whole thing, spent quality time with the NC and other ALPA SMEs, voted no. That’s significant.


2 of those no votes were strictly due to implementation language. So I would love to hear their thoughts on how voting it down will solve that because I can assure you Jetblue won’t lift a finger until the dotted line is signed. So it will be a year and half on TA 2 as well.

Do you want a bigger signing bonus? Better make sure that signing bonus covers the 15.625 million lost each month as well.

So we go back and get a quick redo. A quick one would be 6 months. You think the company is gonna pony up 143 million now? Guess what that just breaks us even.

So you think they are gonna give us 200 million after a 6 month TA?


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Old 06-25-2018, 01:00 PM
  #6824  
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Originally Posted by RiddleEagle18
2 of those no votes were strictly due to implementation language. So I would love to hear their thoughts on how voting it down will solve that because I can assure you Jetblue won’t lift a finger until the dotted line is signed. So it will be a year and half on TA 2 as well.

Do you want a bigger signing bonus? Better make sure that signing bonus covers the 15.625 million lost each month as well.

So we go back and get a quick redo. A quick one would be 6 months. You think the company is gonna pony up 143 million now? Guess what that just breaks us even.

So you think they are gonna give us 200 million after a 6 month TA?


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Would there be any TA, no matter how terrible, that these arguments couldn't be made? You aren't saying it's good, or great. You are playing on fear.

"Anything is better than nothing!"

You are Ford and Harrison's wet dream.
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Old 06-25-2018, 01:47 PM
  #6825  
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Originally Posted by PasserOGas
Would there be any TA, no matter how terrible, that these arguments couldn't be made? You aren't saying it's good, or great. You are playing on fear.



"Anything is better than nothing!"



You are Ford and Harrison's wet dream.


The reps were fine with the TA in itself. My point is voting no on implementation.....


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Old 06-25-2018, 03:10 PM
  #6826  
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Originally Posted by PasserOGas
Would there be any TA, no matter how terrible, that these arguments couldn't be made? You aren't saying it's good, or great. You are playing on fear.

"Anything is better than nothing!"

You are Ford and Harrison's wet dream.
Not fear, just caution. Do you believe in caution?
And answer that 200 mill question- You seemed to ignore that.
Whats the best case scenario? What would you vote yes on?
Id actually like to know what the auto-No voter is looking for.
Give me the pie-in-the-sky dream sheet and then realistic expectations.
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Old 06-25-2018, 04:30 PM
  #6827  
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Originally Posted by BeatNavy
Why wouldn’t I go to a roadshow? Just because I can identify deficiencies in bullet points and discuss them doesn’t negate my desire (or duty) to go to a roadshow, or read the full thing, or at least most sections, several times before I vote. Let me ask you this. How involved are you with this process? Are you a P2P guy? Have you talked to the NC for hours asking questions on the phone and in person at union meetings? I have. And just because many of us can identify and discuss weak areas doesn’t mean we are auto no votes.

You keep touting this “go to a roadshow and read the full TA” to anyone who says anything negative about the TA. Are you implying that with the 3 page bullet points, 18 page bullet points, implementation bullet points, and updated CCG, you can’t see about 95% of where this contract lies in its totality, and enough to debate the pros and cons? There won’t be anything cosmic in the full language or at roadshows. The majority of the details are out. The hundreds of other pages will expand on the bullet points, but most likely won’t make them any better or add value. They are vitally important, because loose language is where the company can exploit us, but don’t count on 200-300 pages of language adding any value to this TA over what the bullet points list. Yes, go to a road show and read all of the TA. But thinking either will magically make this TA any better is crazy.

5 members of the MEC who read the whole thing, spent quality time with the NC and other ALPA SMEs, voted no. That’s significant.
I havent seen one positive post from you so Yes, you sound like an Auto-no.
I have indeed spent hours talking to the mec about the sections that I find the most important.
Where I feel this TA has value is in section 25, which is difficult to understand even after talking ad nauseam with a rep.
So while I agree, on its face the contract appears unimpressive, you are not weighing it in totality. Its not magic, its math and qol Navy.
I presume youve been around the block as have I; have an open mind.
You sound like yours is closed.
To your last point, ask a rep why 2 of the 5 voted no- And then let us know why. It wasnt on the TA.
Ya wanna argue implementation? Im with ya.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:12 PM
  #6828  
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Originally Posted by PasserOGas
You own it at report time. Right now you own it when acknowledged within 2 hours of report. So it's a concession actually.
Keep reading:

Once a Pairing is awarded via FLiCA, PBS or Positive Contact, pay protection is provided.
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Old 06-25-2018, 05:51 PM
  #6829  
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Originally Posted by rvr1800
Keep reading:

Once a Pairing is awarded via FLiCA, PBS or Positive Contact, pay protection is provided.
Better than now.
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Old 06-25-2018, 06:00 PM
  #6830  
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Originally Posted by rvr1800
Keep reading:

Once a Pairing is awarded via FLiCA, PBS or Positive Contact, pay protection is provided.
I hope these guys "keep reading". I think they will and when this TA is understood, many of these Auto-NOs, will be Yays.
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