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US house panel votes in age [67]

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Old 07-23-2023 | 04:08 PM
  #551  
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Originally Posted by Wingtip220
I think we here at APC can just chalk the above statement to youth or willful ignorance. Some education on Labor Law and Contract Law will do wonders for you Noise. To think that inserting that type of language in any contract would persevere thru judicial scrutiny is absurd and without precedent. JetBlue and Spirit both would be buried in litigation.

The only subject that matters in the retirement age argument is the Physical Fitness and Standards testing set forth by the FAA. Not contracts, not opinion, not the juniors vs seniors, not the entitled vs the seasoned and not the recommendations of the screen named APC members.
Not to mention you could still have grandpa flying with a new hire. New hire captain the way things are going.
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Old 07-24-2023 | 08:08 AM
  #552  
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Look at this gem


-Not later than 180 days after the 2 date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall submit to the appropriate congressional committees a report on further increasing the age limitation described in subsection (a).".
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Old 07-24-2023 | 11:23 AM
  #553  
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Originally Posted by ClownDown
Look at this gem


-Not later than 180 days after the 2 date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall submit to the appropriate congressional committees a report on further increasing the age limitation described in subsection (a).".
Yikes!!!!! To infinity....and beyond!
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Old 07-24-2023 | 12:43 PM
  #554  
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Originally Posted by rickair7777
I agree. In a rational world where rules matter.

But in the real world anybody can and will sue everybody in sight if they don't get exactly what they want.
This came up with age 65. Pilots wanted to come back and could not without going to the bottom of the list.
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Old 07-24-2023 | 01:16 PM
  #555  
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Originally Posted by ClownDown
Look at this gem


-Not later than 180 days after the 2 date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator of the Federal Aviation Administration shall submit to the appropriate congressional committees a report on further increasing the age limitation described in subsection (a).".
Looks fake. No reference makes it look even more fake.
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Old 07-24-2023 | 01:54 PM
  #556  
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Originally Posted by Noisecanceller
They can go fly corporate then. Corp aviation is the Wild West. It is not public transportation. Let the owners decide how safe they want to be on the planes they fly on
I don't know that there's any data available that suggests age really has much to do with commercial aviation crashes for large airlines. Applies to both young and old.

Just throwing this out there:

What are the exact ages of the pilots for major commercial airline accidents worldwide for the past few decades?

Air France 447 comes to mind. (CA: 58 FO #1: 37 FO #2: 32). Probably the best test case to look at via the lenses of age. Experienced, not "too old", good training experiences, etc.

KLM 4805/Pan Am 1736. (CA: 50, FO: 42 FE: 48) Pre-CRM, ego issues with the KLM CA, etc.

Malaysia Air 370: (CA: 53. FO: 27) Lord only knows, he ain't talking.

Korean Air 801: (CA: 42. FO: 40 FE: 57)

Go down this rabbit hole and I defy anyone to correlate pilot age to actual major accidents.

(It makes intuitive sense, I agree, but where's the actual data?)
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Old 07-24-2023 | 03:53 PM
  #557  
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Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux
I don't know that there's any data available that suggests age really has much to do with commercial aviation crashes for large airlines. Applies to both young and old.

Just throwing this out there:

What are the exact ages of the pilots for major commercial airline accidents worldwide for the past few decades?

Air France 447 comes to mind. (CA: 58 FO #1: 37 FO #2: 32). Probably the best test case to look at via the lenses of age. Experienced, not "too old", good training experiences, etc.

KLM 4805/Pan Am 1736. (CA: 50, FO: 42 FE: 48) Pre-CRM, ego issues with the KLM CA, etc.

Malaysia Air 370: (CA: 53. FO: 27) Lord only knows, he ain't talking.

Korean Air 801: (CA: 42. FO: 40 FE: 57)

Go down this rabbit hole and I defy anyone to correlate pilot age to actual major accidents.

(It makes intuitive sense, I agree, but where's the actual data?)
Unfortunately, there is no correlation. And, I would submit to you that even if the issue was studied, there’d still be no correlation.
Congress will most likely pass this because it shows they’re working to solve a problem.
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Old 07-24-2023 | 04:20 PM
  #558  
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Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux
I don't know that there's any data available that suggests age really has much to do with commercial aviation crashes for large airlines. Applies to both young and old.

Just throwing this out there:

What are the exact ages of the pilots for major commercial airline accidents worldwide for the past few decades?

Air France 447 comes to mind. (CA: 58 FO #1: 37 FO #2: 32). Probably the best test case to look at via the lenses of age. Experienced, not "too old", good training experiences, etc.
The CA wasn't in the cockpit, he was in the back on rest. He came back moments before impact. IIRC he immediately recognized the problem but too late.

Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux
KLM 4805/Pan Am 1736. (CA: 50, FO: 42 FE: 48) Pre-CRM, ego issues with the KLM CA, etc.
Ancient history, many things have changed.

Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux
Malaysia Air 370: (CA: 53. FO: 27) Lord only knows, he ain't talking.
Nobody knows what happened, could have been anything pilot suicide to heroic pilots trying to put out a fire. Someday they'll find the wreckage. Might be next century.

Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux
Korean Air 801: (CA: 42. FO: 40 FE: 57)
Root cause cultural issues.

Originally Posted by DeltaboundRedux
Go down this rabbit hole and I defy anyone to correlate pilot age to actual major accidents.
Hard to say either way.

Exclude everything prior to year 2000 (many industry changes).

Exclude foriegn ops, too many other variables.

What you're left with is several fatal regional crashes. That might correlate to low age and lack of experience. It might also correlate to inherently riskier conditions at the commuters... small airports, worse work rules, smaller, more challenging destinations, etc. FDX and UPS don't look so hot either, but I'd correlate that to working conditions.
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Old 07-24-2023 | 04:29 PM
  #559  
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Fatals are so rare it's impossible to draw any conclusions. It would be best to look at 91K incidents and ASAPs to look for the "senior moments."
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Old 07-24-2023 | 04:58 PM
  #560  
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The difference between 91 and 121 is the training among other things.
F/o"s are typed and expected to have the same skill set as the captain.
CRM is also heavily emphasized in the fact that F/O's are expected to call for or execute a go around if the aircraft does not meet stable approach criteria at the appropriate altitudes.
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