TheManager

Well, here is what they are selling and communicating

Delta Pilots Association - FAQ

Carl Spackler

I don't think you understand what the prime directive is at ALPA national. Some people think it's pilot representation, but it's not. The prime directive at ALPA national is the growth of the ALPA national bureaucracy. If on the way to growing the bureauacracy some pilots get represented, that is icing on the cake...a happy coincidence. If you look at the actions of national through the lens of bureauacracy growth first, a lot of their actions will begin to make sense.

This is the reason why my main concern will NOT be solved by ALPA national. My main concern is SCOPE. ALPA will not solve it to my satisfaction, because they've calculated that the regionals represent future growth of ALPA.

Most of our services are already outsourced. I believe we'll be able to operate an in-house union cheaper with the same services. As you well know, we only get a fraction of our dues money back from national.

Are you serious? In case you are, no...you can't guarantee anything.
Can you guarantee that ALPA will change...this time? Of course not. You can only hope ALPA will take everyone serious this time despite the horrible track record.

Carl

Sink r8

I read it. That's what I'm basing my concerns on. You posted the thread on the Latest and Greatest, and I gave you the courtesy of reading it. It says nothing of substance about anything of interest. On the subject of who is running this thing... we don't need to know, I guess. From the FAQ:

Q: Who is running the organization?

A: Every Delta pilot that wishes to assist will be given the opportunity. Many applications have been received to date for specific positions and for non-volunteer support as well. Many people have specific skills that will be employed at the appropriate time. All membership applications will always be kept confidential. No sign up list will be posted. Only total numbers will be discussed. All those volunteering to serve are initially being kept confidential until we achieve a “critical mass” consisting of the Financial Oversight Committee and individual base representatives with alternates. At that point, the structure will be significant enough to bear the weight of competing interests. The volunteer group will collectively agree on the timing of the release of organizational names. We want people to jump in with as little stress as possible. Great pains are being taken to staff positions with volunteers from all backgrounds. Pre-merger affiliations are taken into account, but we would like to move as far beyond that issue as possible.

upndsky

Everyone talks about going at it alone, but why?

Why not pool the pilot groups of all the majors and LCCs together? I imagine that this is a debate that will be happening at UA/CO, as well, if it already isn't happening.

People talk about all the services that ALPA provides, but if the various groups -- APA, SWAPA, UPA, DALPA/DPA, etc. -- got together, we can just as easily do the same.

There's already CAPA. Could that be the precursor to an ALPA replacement?

TheManager

You and the others are absolutely right. I also believe that with no leadership this goes no where. If they are at all serious they will have to man up and come forward. If and when that happens, all bets are off in this climate depending on their agenda and their plan for representation.

Communication will be the key to resolving this for either DPA or ALPA.

DAL 88 Driver

Prior to 9/11, Delta had a little over 10,000 pilots on the seniority list. So that would be a combined total of 16,500? Wow! That's about 4,000 less jobs now.

80ktsClamp

It's all good. I remember at a couple LEC meetings our illustrious former LEC leadership fervently justified that scope concessions had nothing to do with that reduction in pilot jobs.

Oh..and that massive article on how any scope reclaimation is a pipe dream in a recent DALPA magazine.

And now I'm getting angry again just thinking about it.

acl65pilot

Carl;
My point is that until this group shows you what you may be buying there are way to many questions. I have known about this site going on two or more months. I have read it. I give them credit that they understand the desertification process, and how to proceed. What I will not give them is that they have the answers to the questions and issues that we will face going forward.

In regard to national, many would throw it back in our face and say that is what you get with unionized labor. If we opt to get out from underneath this costs we are no better than LLC's and regionals that opt to start anew with new labor forces and low costs. It is the same premise.

I know that your argument is that they are bloated and inefficient, while fix what you have. I beleive that many things that the costs associated with starting a new association now will be far greater than anyone imagines. On top of this these guys want to do this going in to a section six cycle. Priceless. Read their timeline. At a min they would need to drag negotiations out at least two to three years to get enough money to support any sort of long term endgame. That is time-value money. As much as many hate to admit it, ALPA has resources now.

Do I like everything at ALPA? Nope not on your life, but like I have said, I am willing and have stepped up when asked to do anything and everything I can for this group. I personally hate that darn rat too! I beleive that we need to change some of the basic policies that national employs. That happens when groups or a group get enough support for it. I am still not willing to sell ALPA down the river. I say if you want change get a dialogue with your reps and talk to the guys at the other airlines (Major, regional and LLC) about why they want for President and why? I am, and it is quite interesting to see their responses.

I agree that this drive will force National to face issues they may not want to, and if they chose to avoid them it will end poorly. I also beleive that given the reps that I know change will be mandated going forward. Everyone I talk to seems to understand (well before this DPA drive) that there needs to be some significant changes to our course and the actions we take. I prefer to see what the current association can do to morph itself in to.

As I have said, if the will of the DAL pilots is to go with DPA then so be it. I will still work to support by brothers and sisters any way I can.

NuGuy

Heyas,

ALPA is already set up to outsource their services. APA, SWAPA, IPA and others already purchase contract services from ALPA National, from aeromedical, to EF&A and others.

That is the strong point to ALPA...it's technical services. Why not take advantage of that and jettison the high priced political baggage?

DAL represents almost %24 of ALPA money. You don't come back after a loss of that kind of revenue, especially when UAL/CAL and probably FDX follow suit. The only possible recourse would be to spin off the technical portion into it's own unit, one which provides technical assistance.

The other would be the representational arm of whoever is left...and it wouldn't be much.

The pilot leaders at the major airlines aren't entirely stupid. They understand the need for mass and representation of the larger issues in DC. The major pilot groups, ALL of them, would group together in a new organization...COPA, maybe, or perhaps other umbrella organization to handle these items. You leave the lobby group to handle national affairs, and negotiations to the individual airlines.

Now you've got all the heavy hitters in one group.

Nu

Check Essential

Exactly.
This will not work unless DPA can articulate their vision for the future.

Nobody has bought anything yet, but it sure seems a lot of people are willing to hear the sales pitch. If they get the right people, with the right message .......