Delta Pilots Association
08-11-2011 | 08:32 AM
#5822
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
The difference here is that my understanding is DPA was filming this event and will put it up on the website for all of us that couldn't be there.
Carl
08-11-2011 | 08:35 AM
#5823
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
It is when you are trying to prove a point. How many pilots show up when you call for a picket line or strike support or a meeting about contract ratification. This meeting should have been SRO. It should have been visual proof that people are willing to decertify ALPA. It wasn't. That's fine. They announced it back in June so people could bid around it. They didn't. I agree it's like an ALPA meeting only the few faithful ones attend. Not enough in either case.
Carl
08-11-2011 | 08:46 AM
#5824
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Likes: 0
Well, mostly.
[Sound of brakes screeching] Whoa. What did we improve in scope, and how many jobs did it bring back to mainline? And while "higher compensation" is a technically accurate statement, it was essentially a COLA to our bankruptcy/emergency rates. Buying power consistent with our bankruptcy contract... certainly nothing to crow about.
Yep. Not rocket science. But there is more to it than that. And using the measures of buying power and mainline pilot jobs, we haven't gained much if anything at all. And when did we come out of BK? 2007? And how much did Delta make last year? And how much did SWA's average Captain and F/O make last year?
[Sound of brakes screeching] Whoa. What did we improve in scope, and how many jobs did it bring back to mainline? And while "higher compensation" is a technically accurate statement, it was essentially a COLA to our bankruptcy/emergency rates. Buying power consistent with our bankruptcy contract... certainly nothing to crow about.
Yep. Not rocket science. But there is more to it than that. And using the measures of buying power and mainline pilot jobs, we haven't gained much if anything at all. And when did we come out of BK? 2007? And how much did Delta make last year? And how much did SWA's average Captain and F/O make last year?
Our average compensation (for all 12,000) 2008-2012 will have gone up 27.5% when you include DC compensation. At SWA it's 7.5%, CAL 1.5%, UAL 1.5%, AMR 1.5%, LCC 0%. If you count non-traditional compensation like stock the numbers favor us even more.
Why did you leave TWA? Was it because 3 years out of bankruptcy their contract was second best in the industry? How long did it take Pan Am to get the second best in the industry? Never. How about Continental? It's 20 years since their last bankruptcy and they still haven't reached #2. UAL, LCC, ......
No one is happy where we are, but you make it seem like we are stumbling while the rest of the industry is thriving. That is not the case. Look at the history of carriers coming out of bankruptcy and tell me which one did better than we did.
Sure SWA is doing well after they undercut the industry by 20-30% for 25 years so their company could grow with no debt. Do you recommend we undercut the industry by 20-30% until 2035 so that Delta can grow with no debt, just so we can be like SWA? If not, then we have to continue to pound away so we can be the first airline to leave bankruptcy and then get to number one. There are no magic bullets, only hard work and persistence.
08-11-2011 | 08:47 AM
#5825
Back on TDY
Joined: Apr 2008
Posts: 12,487
Likes: 0
From: 747-400 Captain
^^^^ There is an African proverb that goes something like this. "The axe forgets, the tree remembers."
12,000 plus trees here remember. They gave. They are still giving, and they are for the most part tired of it.
When you have a select groups of committee folks and reps who "bank on FPL and make way more than the average pilot," or tree in this case, we have problems.
12,000 plus trees here remember. They gave. They are still giving, and they are for the most part tired of it.
When you have a select groups of committee folks and reps who "bank on FPL and make way more than the average pilot," or tree in this case, we have problems.
When one makes FPL at what, 90 + hours a month, plus stipends, with the ability to white and g/s as well, and all of it funded by Delta, have they felt the axe?
Are they willing to fight for restoration? For FDX or UPS+, or even SWA rates. Or, will they be content to not rock the boat, keep the system the same, and attempt to sell everyone on a modest raise because of.... fill in the blank with the excuse du jour.
If those folks are getting paid on what ever they can hold vs. what category they are actually in, I'd venture that they have their restoration already.
Are they willing to fight for restoration? For FDX or UPS+, or even SWA rates. Or, will they be content to not rock the boat, keep the system the same, and attempt to sell everyone on a modest raise because of.... fill in the blank with the excuse du jour.
If those folks are getting paid on what ever they can hold vs. what category they are actually in, I'd venture that they have their restoration already.
Carl
08-11-2011 | 08:59 AM
#5826
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12,823
Likes: 169
From: window seat
a prominent DAL exec said in response to the suggestion that our pay should be restored to 2004 levels: "We didn’t need temporary relief due to a short-term issue – we needed to reform our business so that we are profitable." That's the mentality we're dealing with.
There is no intellectual arguement whatsoever for us not getting SWA pay plus reasonable premiums for obvious reasons plus a full COLA going forward plus significant work rule improvements plus significant progress towards SWA scope.
Any and every claim that we "can't afford" that is an indictment of incompetent management or incompetent union leadershp, depending on which one is making that claim. SWA/SWAPA have no problem making it work. If DL/DALPA scoff at the viability of SWA parity one or both are full of it and needs to be properly educated by the DL pilot group.
08-11-2011 | 09:19 AM
#5827
Happy to be here
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 18,563
Likes: 0
From: A-320A
I think 20 at both meetings for a union that is not even a union yet is pretty good, compared to our actual union only getting 20 to 30.
The difference here is that my understanding is DPA was filming this event and will put it up on the website for all of us that couldn't be there.
Carl
The difference here is that my understanding is DPA was filming this event and will put it up on the website for all of us that couldn't be there.
Carl
Many LEC's film the committee reports, and old business. It is the new business that many are working on finding a way to post. (Resolutions and pilots with hot heads) I even recall some guest speakers getting their presentations posted on a LEC page.
What I found interesting here is that the DPA invited a few reporters. From what I gather, those reporters spent a good deal of time with someone other than the folks from the DPA.
08-11-2011 | 09:56 AM
#5828
At home on the maddog!
Joined: Mar 2009
Posts: 2,874
Likes: 0
From: Retired (mandatory age 65)
We reduced the allowed number of aircraft 51 seats or higher to a number below the total numbers allowed under each separate contract.
Our average compensation (for all 12,000) 2008-2012 will have gone up 27.5% when you include DC compensation. At SWA it's 7.5%, CAL 1.5%, UAL 1.5%, AMR 1.5%, LCC 0%. If you count non-traditional compensation like stock the numbers favor us even more.
Why did you leave TWA? Was it because 3 years out of bankruptcy their contract was second best in the industry? How long did it take Pan Am to get the second best in the industry? Never. How about Continental? It's 20 years since their last bankruptcy and they still haven't reached #2. UAL, LCC, ......
No one is happy where we are, but you make it seem like we are stumbling while the rest of the industry is thriving. That is not the case. Look at the history of carriers coming out of bankruptcy and tell me which one did better than we did.
Sure SWA is doing well after they undercut the industry by 20-30% for 25 years so their company could grow with no debt. Do you recommend we undercut the industry by 20-30% until 2035 so that Delta can grow with no debt, just so we can be like SWA? If not, then we have to continue to pound away so we can be the first airline to leave bankruptcy and then get to number one. There are no magic bullets, only hard work and persistence.
Our average compensation (for all 12,000) 2008-2012 will have gone up 27.5% when you include DC compensation. At SWA it's 7.5%, CAL 1.5%, UAL 1.5%, AMR 1.5%, LCC 0%. If you count non-traditional compensation like stock the numbers favor us even more.
Why did you leave TWA? Was it because 3 years out of bankruptcy their contract was second best in the industry? How long did it take Pan Am to get the second best in the industry? Never. How about Continental? It's 20 years since their last bankruptcy and they still haven't reached #2. UAL, LCC, ......
No one is happy where we are, but you make it seem like we are stumbling while the rest of the industry is thriving. That is not the case. Look at the history of carriers coming out of bankruptcy and tell me which one did better than we did.
Sure SWA is doing well after they undercut the industry by 20-30% for 25 years so their company could grow with no debt. Do you recommend we undercut the industry by 20-30% until 2035 so that Delta can grow with no debt, just so we can be like SWA? If not, then we have to continue to pound away so we can be the first airline to leave bankruptcy and then get to number one. There are no magic bullets, only hard work and persistence.
And I left TWA because I saw no future there. The fact that 2nd year pay at the time at Delta was an increase from what I was making at TWA was just another item for the "pros" column on my pros and cons decision sheet.
08-11-2011 | 10:10 AM
#5829
The Brown Dot +1
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 7,775
Likes: 0
From: 777B
Why on earth does it matter why DAL88 left twa whenever he left?
Is the intent of questioning why he even took the job there in some way relevant to current DAL issues? Or is it in some way to discredit the valid points he is making?
Why did any of us take any job? Why did any of us leave that job? Are stepping stone jobs in some way related to current reasoning skills?
Is the intent of questioning why he even took the job there in some way relevant to current DAL issues? Or is it in some way to discredit the valid points he is making?
Why did any of us take any job? Why did any of us leave that job? Are stepping stone jobs in some way related to current reasoning skills?
08-11-2011 | 10:11 AM
#5830
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 383
Likes: 0
From: Delta M88 A ATL
Agree. Word is there is a resolution to do exactly that to be introduced at the MEC meeting, but the powers-that-be would never let that happen.
The DALPA Committee structure is the real power behind the scenes. They massage the information that is presented to the MEC to whatever ends the MEC chair wants (since their job depends on it). They are unelected and chosen by a chair that is twice removed from the pilots-at-large. LEC reps come and go, but some of these guys linger for YEARS and YEARS.
Lots of FPL, overrides and plain getting out of flying the line. Since the FPL data isn't readily avaiable, most of it goes unnoticed. NWALPA also posted the FPL on a month-by-month basis, but then, there you go.
There's just too much at stake, both on a political level, and a personal level, for these folks to allow a fNWA style policy.
Nu
The DALPA Committee structure is the real power behind the scenes. They massage the information that is presented to the MEC to whatever ends the MEC chair wants (since their job depends on it). They are unelected and chosen by a chair that is twice removed from the pilots-at-large. LEC reps come and go, but some of these guys linger for YEARS and YEARS.
Lots of FPL, overrides and plain getting out of flying the line. Since the FPL data isn't readily avaiable, most of it goes unnoticed. NWALPA also posted the FPL on a month-by-month basis, but then, there you go.
There's just too much at stake, both on a political level, and a personal level, for these folks to allow a fNWA style policy.
Nu
Clearly it is time for a change. A bloated
Bureaucracy exists at DAL ALPA .
I would rather wait an additional year for contract 2012, and have DPA negotiate it at that time.
Based on past performance from ALPA's other contracts ,keep in mind that most of them are regional airline contracts, we can expect more of the same.
No restoration of our contract, not even a mention of it in any DAALPA communication. With DAALPA members expectations being carefully controlled by DAALPA, we will see more of the same in 2012.
Unless we all continue to create our Delta Pilots Association. It's up to us.
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