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Old 10-31-2008, 09:18 AM   #131  
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Keep in mind that the Delta proposal last spring was a much better deal for NWA then the current table position so I am sure there is room to move.
That deal last spring was dead on arrival. If our guys are telling the truth, it was every bit as extreme as the current DAL proposal. If you think movement toward the spring proposal is movement, you are greatly mistaken.

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A straight DOH list kills all movement for Delta pilots for 5 to 10 years.
Without fences, you would be right. With the 10 year fence in the NWA proposal, virtually all movement in pre-merger DAL aircraft would go to DAL pilots for 10 years. The fact that so many DAL guys continue to pretend that the 10 year fence either doesn't exist or is some sort of NWA trick, really keeps you from looking at this objectively.

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Old 10-31-2008, 09:20 AM   #132  
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Arbitrations are a lot like criminal and civil trials. 98% of what the lawyers bring is pure BS and opinion, with 2% actual facts and irrefutable statistics. When those 2% items come along, judges listen.
Carl
Like "Super Premium flying."

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Old 10-31-2008, 09:25 AM   #133  
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ALOS could be a way to begin.

Carl
Interesting.......what would that do to the "saw toothing" of the DOH list? I've heard that "they" were looking at ways to work "year group management" and this may be it?
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:41 AM   #134  
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Like "Super Premium flying."

Scoop
Exactly.

Carl - the non-adjective king.
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Old 10-31-2008, 09:42 AM   #135  
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Interesting.......what would that do to the "saw toothing" of the DOH list? I've heard that "they" were looking at ways to work "year group management" and this may be it?
It smooths out the saw-tooths a little, but it doesn't cure it.

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Old 10-31-2008, 10:12 AM   #136  
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Carl, The Delta position last spring was a straight ratio. It was put in writing by our MEC chairman that no pilot on either list would move more then 1/2 of a percent from their current relative position. Your MEC later put out a letter confirming that. The proposal now on the table is a ratio by equipment. Very different and not nearly as good a deal as the spring offer. Your MEC seems to put out a lot of strange things and later change their mind or recant them.
When I posted here that our MEC chairman notified and talked with your chairman many NWA pilots posted that their MEC absolutely denied any contact of any type!!!!!!! Then Stevens is put under Oath and the whole story changes. Even your roadshows put out lots of wrong info on the Delta contract in areas such as medical, flight hour caps and work rules. Slowly that is getting corrected but some has become urban legend at NWA. Just last week at LGA I spoke with a NWA pilot who was concerned about his paycut when we went to a hard 75 hour cap. When I explained to him that we have not had a 75 hour cap in many years and in fact he can easily fly up to the FAR maximums he was astounded and felt deceived since he said it was put out at a MEC meeting. I just got off the phone with a friend at NWA. He summed it up like this. "You Delta guys are going to have to understand that NWA is a culture of hate and distrust." The constant infighting with the red and green book MEC members has hindered this entire merger process at every step. Even today you still have observers watching each other at the hearings. The Delta guys kind of laugh about it now and have lots of names for them. Politicos, observers, watchers, spooks ect...
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Old 10-31-2008, 10:23 AM   #137  
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Carl, The Delta position last spring was a straight ratio. It was put in writing by our MEC chairman that no pilot on either list would move more then 1/2 of a percent from their current relative position. Your MEC later put out a letter confirming that. The proposal now on the table is a ratio by equipment. Very different and not nearly as good a deal as the spring offer. Your MEC seems to put out a lot of strange things and later change their mind or recant them.
When I posted here that our MEC chairman notified and talked with your chairman many NWA pilots posted that their MEC absolutely denied any contact of any type!!!!!!! Then Stevens is put under Oath and the whole story changes. Even your roadshows put out lots of wrong info on the Delta contract in areas such as medical, flight hour caps and work rules. Slowly that is getting corrected but some has become urban legend at NWA. Just last week at LGA I spoke with a NWA pilot who was concerned about his paycut when we went to a hard 75 hour cap. When I explained to him that we have not had a 75 hour cap in many years and in fact he can easily fly up to the FAR maximums he was astounded and felt deceived since he said it was put out at a MEC meeting. I just got off the phone with a friend at NWA. He summed it up like this. "You Delta guys are going to have to understand that NWA is a culture of hate and distrust." The constant infighting with the red and green book MEC members has hindered this entire merger process at every step. Even today you still have observers watching each other at the hearings. The Delta guys kind of laugh about it now and have lots of names for them. Politicos, observers, watchers, spooks ect...
You are free to characterize the NWA MEC and the DAL MEC however you wish, but you sound naive. There's also that sound of Kool-Aid sloshing around that seems to be a recurring problem. I have a healthy dose of skepticism for all sides until there is proof beyond all doubt, thus I'm not able to say I know very much for certain about this.

And by the way, everything in bold font above is BS.

Carl
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Old 10-31-2008, 11:13 AM   #138  
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Carl,

One of my basic objections to the NW proposed DOH list is that any new equipment that comes on property will be filled by a former NW pilot and could very well move a DL pilot who is currently on that equipment down and possibly off that equipment.

Example: Per the NW proposed fence, I believe 290 777 capt positions are fenced. Say in 5 years we now have 350 capt positions on the 777. They will all be filled by NW pilots because of a DOH list and NW getting 1500 of the top 1800 positions(approx) and thereby inhibiting any movement for the DL side and pushing DL pilots that were already on that equipment more junior.

Now these aircraft are not on firm order but our agreement with Boeing is different than most and has been explained before. Your Merger committee also wants to fence off 315 Capt positions on the 787 that wont be delivered for, at the least, a year and probably not until 2010.

I guess my problem comes from being able to envision any new widebody capt positions going to former NW pilots, and I will qualify it, ALMOST exclusively and thereby hindering any pre-merger DL pilots advancement to these positions that would have been available to them.

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Old 10-31-2008, 11:25 AM   #139  
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There's also that sound of Kool-Aid sloshing around that seems to be a recurring problem. I have a healthy dose of skepticism for all sides until there is proof beyond all doubt, thus I'm not able to say I know very much for certain about this.

Carl
Carl,
I agree that there is a lot of Kool-aid being sloshed around at both sides but especially from the recent DAL hires. Being ex-military I was a kool-aid drinker and thought I was actually a valued employee - right up until I was furloughed, with a no-furlough clause intact. At that point the kool-aid developed a bitter after taste that still remains and I refuse to touch the stuff. That is when it dawned on me that I was just a cost to be minimized so that management could increase the size of their bonus, compenstaion, thievery etc. I am convinced that for a while DAL was not being run to maximize profit, or even minimize losses, but to further enrich management. I hope those days are gone but I will not believe managements words until they are backed up with actions.
Contrary to our management, I think our union guys have been straight shooters all along and since we have no red book - green book rift I tend to give them the benefit of the doubt if their is a discrepancy between the two MEC's, granted I am not an unbiased observer.

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Old 10-31-2008, 12:51 PM   #140  
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Carl,

One of my basic objections to the NW proposed DOH list is that any new equipment that comes on property will be filled by a former NW pilot and could very well move a DL pilot who is currently on that equipment down and possibly off that equipment.

Example: Per the NW proposed fence, I believe 290 777 capt positions are fenced. Say in 5 years we now have 350 capt positions on the 777. They will all be filled by NW pilots because of a DOH list and NW getting 1500 of the top 1800 positions(approx) and thereby inhibiting any movement for the DL side and pushing DL pilots that were already on that equipment more junior.
That of course would be unacceptable. Thankfully, the NWA fences don't say what you think they say. Here are the relevant excerpts from the NWA proposal: (paragraph 5A is where the 280 777 capt positions and all the other protected positions are listed)

All positions shall be allocated to the pilot group entitled to the quota in subparagraph 5.A. until the quota is filled. Positions in excess of the number reserved above will be shared equally on a 1 to 1 basis. Any reduction in the number of B767/757 Captain positions below the quota level specified in paragraph 5.A.vi. above will be accomplished on a ratio of 3:1.

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Now these aircraft are not on firm order but our agreement with Boeing is different than most and has been explained before. Your Merger committee also wants to fence off 315 Capt positions on the 787 that wont be delivered for, at the least, a year and probably not until 2010.
I hope the 315 figure of 787 capts comports with the current 777 capt list plus all 777 on firm order. If it doesn't, that would need to be corrected by NWALPA.

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I guess my problem comes from being able to envision any new widebody capt positions going to former NW pilots, and I will qualify it, ALMOST exclusively and thereby hindering any pre-merger DL pilots advancement to these positions that would have been available to them.

Denny
I hope what I've posted alleviates your misconceptions Denny. As I keep saying, the NWA 10 year fence protects DAL pilot's seniority for 10 years, AND shares any growth on either side on a 1 for 1 basis.

Carl
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