New Mesa Thread
02-24-2016, 09:33 AM
#4691
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Ball Turret Gunner
Posts: 297
We need to stop arguing about the reasons why we chose to come here and if they are a valid excuse or not. (waste of time and only divides the pilot group) What we need to be doing is coming together to get on the ALPAS arrss's about all the mismanaged contract rules, find the leverage for better pay, getting the right people in office, deflect as many new hires from coming here ect, and get wasted at the employee appreciation party.
I agree with scotty on the hobby thing. It does hold the industry pay down, and can be a safety issue in some cases. Not all but some. Nothing against ya old farts and has nothing to do with age.
But this argument resurfaces way to much. Yes we chose to come here, I still have a right to bi*ch about the pay cause i receive the check, but we all have the ability to create the leverage for better pay and the work rules. That is where the effort needs to be directed.
Pregame for the party anyone?
I agree with scotty on the hobby thing. It does hold the industry pay down, and can be a safety issue in some cases. Not all but some. Nothing against ya old farts and has nothing to do with age.
But this argument resurfaces way to much. Yes we chose to come here, I still have a right to bi*ch about the pay cause i receive the check, but we all have the ability to create the leverage for better pay and the work rules. That is where the effort needs to be directed.
Pregame for the party anyone?
02-24-2016, 11:36 AM
#4692
Covfefe
Joined APC: Jun 2015
Posts: 3,001
As for flying being a hobby...everyone has their reason for flying. This has been debated as nauseum. Anyone who does it "for fun" and not for the money is perhaps going to try harder than a guy who is burned out and doesn't want to be there. I do better at everything when I enjoy what I'm doing. If there are a few people who aren't relying on the paycheck to feed their family, and/or who made enough money in a previous career, it won't affect the industry one bit. I guarantee less than 10% of the newhires (prob less than 1%) have tons of money stashed away and are doing this as a hobby. There are no discriminating reasons why or why not to be a professional pilot. That's the beauty of free market (kind of) capitalism. If 50,000 people in the US decided they wanted to retire wealthy from business and fly planes around for free, we would have to find something else to do.
The fact is people who do this for fun aren't going to put up with Mesa for long and will go elsewhere or go back to flying a cirrus for fun, creating another vacancy and training cost for Mesa, which nullifies the "they are filling seats and thusly reducing our leverage" argument. Supply and demand rules. If people are coming here, Mesa is doing something right. Faulting individuals for showing up (just like you) is the wrong way to go about trying to make your life better. Quitting altogether or volunteering for the union to try to negotiate better are more productive ideas.
And as for training standards and old people who only have 1500 hours in a Cessna over a 20 year period being less competent and less able to absorb/keep up with the 121 environment standards, that's a training department problem, not a newhire/Internet forum problem. If they don't meet standards, they shouldn't make it to the line. That includes IOE, even if they make it thru the checkride. I understand "standards" flex with an airline's needs, but we have all walks of life struggling in initial and IOE (and on the line). If you have problems with someone you are flying with, pro standards and perhaps chief pilots should be involved. If you find yourself as a line captain flying with someone of any age/experience who you have to teach a lot to, and you fail to bring it up to the union/company, you are the problem, not the newhire who is just trying to fly and do his job.
02-24-2016, 12:19 PM
#4693
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 29
Why don't you quit and go to endeavor since you feel like telling everyone else they should look elsewhere? You will make more there first year than you will as a captain here. And frankly I don't think you will need to worry about captain pay right now anyway. Not if you act in real life like you do on the internets.
As for flying being a hobby...everyone has their reason for flying. This has been debated as nauseum. Anyone who does it "for fun" and not for the money is perhaps going to try harder than a guy who is burned out and doesn't want to be there. I do better at everything when I enjoy what I'm doing. If there are a few people who aren't relying on the paycheck to feed their family, and/or who made enough money in a previous career, it won't affect the industry one bit. I guarantee less than 10% of the newhires (prob less than 1%) have tons of money stashed away and are doing this as a hobby. There are no discriminating reasons why or why not to be a professional pilot. That's the beauty of free market (kind of) capitalism. If 50,000 people in the US decided they wanted to retire wealthy from business and fly planes around for free, we would have to find something else to do.
The fact is people who do this for fun aren't going to put up with Mesa for long and will go elsewhere or go back to flying a cirrus for fun, creating another vacancy and training cost for Mesa, which nullifies the "they are filling seats and thusly reducing our leverage" argument. Supply and demand rules. If people are coming here, Mesa is doing something right. Faulting individuals for showing up (just like you) is the wrong way to go about trying to make your life better. Quitting altogether or volunteering for the union to try to negotiate better are more productive ideas.
And as for training standards and old people who only have 1500 hours in a Cessna over a 20 year period being less competent and less able to absorb/keep up with the 121 environment standards, that's a training department problem, not a newhire/Internet forum problem. If they don't meet standards, they shouldn't make it to the line. That includes IOE, even if they make it thru the checkride. I understand "standards" flex with an airline's needs, but we have all walks of life struggling in initial and IOE (and on the line). If you have problems with someone you are flying with, pro standards and perhaps chief pilots should be involved. If you find yourself as a line captain flying with someone of any age/experience who you have to teach a lot to, and you fail to bring it up to the union/company, you are the problem, not the newhire who is just trying to fly and do his job.
As for flying being a hobby...everyone has their reason for flying. This has been debated as nauseum. Anyone who does it "for fun" and not for the money is perhaps going to try harder than a guy who is burned out and doesn't want to be there. I do better at everything when I enjoy what I'm doing. If there are a few people who aren't relying on the paycheck to feed their family, and/or who made enough money in a previous career, it won't affect the industry one bit. I guarantee less than 10% of the newhires (prob less than 1%) have tons of money stashed away and are doing this as a hobby. There are no discriminating reasons why or why not to be a professional pilot. That's the beauty of free market (kind of) capitalism. If 50,000 people in the US decided they wanted to retire wealthy from business and fly planes around for free, we would have to find something else to do.
The fact is people who do this for fun aren't going to put up with Mesa for long and will go elsewhere or go back to flying a cirrus for fun, creating another vacancy and training cost for Mesa, which nullifies the "they are filling seats and thusly reducing our leverage" argument. Supply and demand rules. If people are coming here, Mesa is doing something right. Faulting individuals for showing up (just like you) is the wrong way to go about trying to make your life better. Quitting altogether or volunteering for the union to try to negotiate better are more productive ideas.
And as for training standards and old people who only have 1500 hours in a Cessna over a 20 year period being less competent and less able to absorb/keep up with the 121 environment standards, that's a training department problem, not a newhire/Internet forum problem. If they don't meet standards, they shouldn't make it to the line. That includes IOE, even if they make it thru the checkride. I understand "standards" flex with an airline's needs, but we have all walks of life struggling in initial and IOE (and on the line). If you have problems with someone you are flying with, pro standards and perhaps chief pilots should be involved. If you find yourself as a line captain flying with someone of any age/experience who you have to teach a lot to, and you fail to bring it up to the union/company, you are the problem, not the newhire who is just trying to fly and do his job.
I see a ton of posts trying to keep new hires away. I haven't seen any posts where the current Mesa pilot group is going to take drastic actions to gain real leverage like packing up the flight bag and walking out as a majority. Plenty want to throw the new hire under the bus but won't put their own big boy pants on and act instead of just complaining.
You can't eat your cake and have it too. Many are attracted to Mesa because of the quicker upgrade time. I read where other pilots at other regional airlines complain because they won't get an upgrade for 8 years. Upgrade times at Mesa are low, in part, because people leave. People leave because of a poor contract and other job offers. People leaving means better seniority. With a really good contract comes lifers... log jam at the top. Most see Mesa as a stepping stone.
Mesa, as a company, appears like they don't want to keep you anyway. If they did, they would try harder. I have also been told about all of the pilots leaving on a monthly basis. It is much more cost effective to lose a 6 yr captain and replace him/her with a new hire over and over. It is not as cost effective to have a large amount of lifer captains making max dollars. Keeping labor costs low means they can low bid their contracts with mainlines. Just appears that's how they do business.
Bottom line, Mesa isn't the only ones hiring. Nobody is being forced to work there. Find a place that fits your needs.
02-24-2016, 12:43 PM
#4694
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2014
Posts: 233
I haven't seen any posts where the current Mesa pilot group is going to take drastic actions to gain real leverage like packing up the flight bag and walking out as a majority. Plenty want to throw the new hire under the bus but won't put their own big boy pants on and act instead of just complaining.
Overall your post was pretty accurate, but you have to remember that you're reading a very small percentage of the Mesa pilot group's opinion on these forums.
02-24-2016, 12:48 PM
#4695
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jan 2016
Posts: 29
Trust me, people are doing just that. Attrition has been picking up. Captain's I've flown with recently have said that virtually every FO they've flown with has interviews lined up elsewhere. This summer is going to be a ****show for those who still work there if current RSV numbers and schedules are any indication of what's to come.
Overall your post was pretty accurate, but you have to remember that you're reading a very small percentage of the Mesa pilot group's opinion on these forums.
Overall your post was pretty accurate, but you have to remember that you're reading a very small percentage of the Mesa pilot group's opinion on these forums.
02-24-2016, 01:12 PM
#4696
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 977
Just reading that lengthy post to ScottyDo, I know 100% I don't want to fly with you. I don't care about your business experience and blah blah blah--sorry. Don't take it personally--I'm just trying to be upfront and honest and telling you that none of those things matter to me at all when we're trying to operate an EJet in a 121 environment safely and without getting violated.
Now, maybe if you can figure out and openly admit that NONE of your past life experience/business instincts/experience running a GA airport/flying GA have almost NO relevance to flying an EJet in 121 passenger ops--if you can do that--and literally acknowledge that whatever you did before gives you essentially zero "instincts" in the 121 grind--then maybe I'll fly with you. But I can already see that's going to be a problem with you on the line, because you can't stop talking about it on here.
I honestly don't care if you're 64 or 24--the stereotype many of us Captains are applying to "old guys" is simply a rough correlation: were you flying passenger ops in 121 for the last 25 years? No? Ok--then we've established that I have vastly more experience to you (in the context of this job/operation), and so when I tell you you're messing up/too high on GS/didn't read back the clearance right (all things that all new guys mess up)--you won't take it personally, debate it with me, or act like a butthurt child who's ego and "experience" as a guy 20 years older than me have been insulted? Can you do that for me, bud?
If we can clear up that your whole background and life story has almost nothing to do with flying an airliner safely, and if you can just stop talking about it during every leg, then maybe we'll get along and be ok--not optimstic based on past experience with "old guys."
Sorry--just venting a bit
rant over
02-24-2016, 01:53 PM
#4697
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Ball Turret Gunner
Posts: 297
You are exactly the type of patronizing "I flew GA when you were in diapers, whippersnapper" type who is literally making my life miserable on every 4-day recently.
Just reading that lengthy post to ScottyDo, I know 100% I don't want to fly with you. I don't care about your business experience and blah blah blah--sorry. Don't take it personally--I'm just trying to be upfront and honest and telling you that none of those things matter to me at all when we're trying to operate an EJet in a 121 environment safely and without getting violated.
Now, maybe if you can figure out and openly admit that NONE of your past life experience/business instincts/experience running a GA airport/flying GA have almost NO relevance to flying an EJet in 121 passenger ops--if you can do that--and literally acknowledge that whatever you did before gives you essentially zero "instincts" in the 121 grind--then maybe I'll fly with you. But I can already see that's going to be a problem with you on the line, because you can't stop talking about it on here.
I honestly don't care if you're 64 or 24--the stereotype many of us Captains are applying to "old guys" is simply a rough correlation: were you flying passenger ops in 121 for the last 25 years? No? Ok--then we've established that I have vastly more experience to you (in the context of this job/operation), and so when I tell you you're messing up/too high on GS/didn't read back the clearance right (all things that all new guys mess up)--you won't take it personally, debate it with me, or act like a butthurt child who's ego and "experience" as a guy 20 years older than me have been insulted? Can you do that for me, bud?
If we can clear up that your whole background and life story has almost nothing to do with flying an airliner safely, and if you can just stop talking about it during every leg, then maybe we'll get along and be ok--not optimstic based on past experience with "old guys."
Sorry--just venting a bit
rant over
Just reading that lengthy post to ScottyDo, I know 100% I don't want to fly with you. I don't care about your business experience and blah blah blah--sorry. Don't take it personally--I'm just trying to be upfront and honest and telling you that none of those things matter to me at all when we're trying to operate an EJet in a 121 environment safely and without getting violated.
Now, maybe if you can figure out and openly admit that NONE of your past life experience/business instincts/experience running a GA airport/flying GA have almost NO relevance to flying an EJet in 121 passenger ops--if you can do that--and literally acknowledge that whatever you did before gives you essentially zero "instincts" in the 121 grind--then maybe I'll fly with you. But I can already see that's going to be a problem with you on the line, because you can't stop talking about it on here.
I honestly don't care if you're 64 or 24--the stereotype many of us Captains are applying to "old guys" is simply a rough correlation: were you flying passenger ops in 121 for the last 25 years? No? Ok--then we've established that I have vastly more experience to you (in the context of this job/operation), and so when I tell you you're messing up/too high on GS/didn't read back the clearance right (all things that all new guys mess up)--you won't take it personally, debate it with me, or act like a butthurt child who's ego and "experience" as a guy 20 years older than me have been insulted? Can you do that for me, bud?
If we can clear up that your whole background and life story has almost nothing to do with flying an airliner safely, and if you can just stop talking about it during every leg, then maybe we'll get along and be ok--not optimstic based on past experience with "old guys."
Sorry--just venting a bit
rant over
02-24-2016, 01:58 PM
#4698
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2015
Position: Ball Turret Gunner
Posts: 297
Don't forget to sign up for the vacation buy back guys. Come on mesa needs our help! (Extream sarcasm implied and directed)
02-24-2016, 01:58 PM
#4699
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Posts: 504
What's up with this vacation buy back mail?
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