Agree on 1, 2, and 4. On #3 I say this: IP is a qual and EP is a cert. If you don't believe me, look at your Form 8. It will only ever say EP if you are being evaluated while performing EP duties. Otherwise, you are taking a checkride as an IP. Yes, you could be the EP on a local with the IP as the A code on the orders...but most of my EP time I was the A code and I think it is cleaner to build crews that way so there is no question who is in charge. I just lump all my IP/EP time together and damn sure call it all PIC.

 

^^^ THIS!!!

I sat through lots of EP Cert boards and heard multiple Sq CC's say that no matter what you are coded as… You are ALWAYS the EP! A code or not, the second something goes sideways on the jet they hook the A Code and then they hook the EP whether he was serving in that capacity or not… and then they blame the EP for letting it happen. Seen it happen multiple times. I'm counting every second of EP time.

I remember having a weekly co-pilot meeting and telling them one week that anytime they were flying with an EP that if they were in the window for a no-notice then they could expect one whether they were coded as an EP or not (which they didn't like to hear). I said the bad news was I was going to give them a no-notice, the good news was that anything they did that was bad enough to earn them a Q-3 meant that I actually let them do it so I'd have to Q-3 myself… and that wasn't happening! I'll take the hit on other time (reluctantly), but not on IP/EP time. I can justify that all day long...

 

I logged all my EP time as PIC because all of my eval experience I was in the seat administering a check ride to a FTU student. Made it easy.

 

Disagree. The EP ALWAYS has the "real" A-code...in other words, regardless of what your flight orders say, the EP has the ultimate responsibility if he is actively evaluating...which he should always be doing...even if he isn't actively logging EP time.

Just like an IP sitting right seat for a young AC who has the A-code on the orders has ultimate responsibility to "fix things" when they go pear shaped.

It's easy to figure out who has the ultimate responsibility - who is the SQ/DO going to yell out loudest? [/QUOTE]







^^^^^^^^^^^^

Disagree. Legally, the A code is ultimately responsible, whether he is a young AC, or an old EP. Otherwise, why even designate one if you are just going to argue that the most qual'ed guy is "really" in charge.

If the A code is a young AC with two old EPs jerking gear and the young guy wants to turn right in holding and the two old guys want to turn left is it not akin to mutiny if they overrule him and force the plane left( extreme example, just trying to show who has legal authority). Who signed the flight plan? The guy legally in charge (A code) or do you consider him a mere puppet if there is a higher qual'ed guy on board?

And for all those single seat or navy guys reading, in the c-17 reserve world it is very common for the AC (A code) to be a young capt, and the other two guys to be an IP/EP (though not listed on orders as performing those duties, they are essentially copilots legally).

In the airline world, Captains get Line Checks every year from a Line Check Airman (LCA). The Captain signs the flight plan and is responsible per the FARs. Same concept.

Aside from being wrong legally IMHO, what message are you sending to a young AC if you tell him "You are in charge of this aircraft and crew, but not "really"? Either put him in charge, because you've trained and qualified him to do so, or don't--but don't send him out there with all of the "responsibility" but none of the "authority".

 

It amazes me how many military folks refuse to listen to those of us working in the airlines ... sometimes on our second, third and fourth airline!

It is not an argument of what you can prove legally and what's in the FARs for figuring up PIC time, but what the airline you're applying to believes.

 

Sorry man, that's kind of unreal. I never had leadership/management bring it up as an airline issue, but over the years I did have some DO/ADOs refuse to code as an IP on missions. Which meant I couldn't log any IP time. I didn't care personally, as a FAIP I hit the 17 just shy of ATP mins anyway, I just felt bad that it meant the co's had to log other time. Never really saw it hurting me. I couldn't for the life of me figure out why they cared, they acted like it cost them more money if I logged IP time.

Regarding checkrides. Interesting. On my OME I think I was A coded--though it's been so long I really don't remember. But I do know the EP didn't get in the seat, he was a 4th pilot. He pulled his share of cruise b, but was not in seat for anything else.

 

I didn't say "...the most qual'ed guy is "really" in charge." - I asked who was the SQ/DO going to yell at? I didn't ask what was legal, I was addressing what your conscience can put on an airline app.


You miss the point. I ALWAYS told guys it's their call...unless they're going to hurt me, bend the airplane, or get me violated. I sat back and watched LOTS of buffoonery...it's the only way young guys will learn - let them make mistakes. BUT you don't, and can't, let them violate rules (your turn in holding example). You don't LET them bend the plane. If you do, it's your arse as the EP/IP...regardless of who has the "legal" A-code. Who is the DO going to yell at?

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

I reread your original post, and I don't think I missed your point. We just disagree on who is ultimately responsible. You seem to think a guy higher qualed then the A code is ultimately responsible (Who is getting yelled at). I don't.

In my squadron when a crew screws up the SQ/DO yells at all of them and then dismisses the copilots (MP/IP/EP qualed guys) and then has a long ***** session with the A code (could be a young Capt, recently AC qualed). Because being the A code MEANS something -- you are ultimately responsible and you alone are going to get the brunt of the DOs wrath.

Does that mean that the old head EP gear jerker is not going to speak up when the young AC is doing something stupid? No, every crewmember has a responsibility to speak up, and a smart AC would be wise to rely on his experienced crewmembers.

But back to the original topic. If you are EP qualed and listed on the orders as a gear jerker, then legally, and consciencely, you cannot claim that time as PIC. Do guys do it? Sure, there is no way for an airline to question it. I only brought up the subtopic because some posters in this thread have what I believe IMHO,is a misperception as to what the A code is and what it means......

 

I'll ramble on because:
A) I'm bored on my layover
B) I've had a few beers
C) Your system of "who gets yelled at" intrigues me

So in this system, I imagine if the crew is MP, IP AND EP, the EP gets yelled at (regardless of who has A code).

But what if--

A) it's two IPs or two EPs on board....does it go by seniority? UPT seniority? Rank? Total time? Time in crew qual? Is it determined beforehand and briefed at the Mission brief who the DO will yell at?

B) SQ/cc IP vs Chief DOV EP. Who wins that showdown?

C) Long time SQ IP vs new hire who was EP on AD, but was downgraded to MP upon getting hired at Reserves?

I'll quit now.....

 

Any mil pilots use Logbook Pro or LogTen Pro? Do they have an easy military to civilian converter that uses the 90% rule (90% of AC time = PIC) that most guys use?