My first assignment I was an IP and did that and was lucky enough to upgrade to EP my last few months there, so that wasn't a problem... like you said "the general approved technique". At my next Base we had a new Sq and OG Commander who were as big of a box checking company man tandem as you get and VERY anti-airline. If you mentioned the word airline anywhere near them you could kiss any OPR strat goodbye. The quote I heard all the time regarding logging time on 781s from both of them was, "This isn't Southwest lead in, you guys aren't going to log all IP or Primary time!" You could get away with logging all IP time if you were the A Code IP on a local, but we had daily/weekly 781 reviews with SARMS and if an AC or IP went on the road logging all/mostly IP and primary time they were called behind the woodshed by the DO. With a straight up AC it was just understood that you would split the time 3 ways; with an IP you could log some IP time on a mission, but you ended up with a bunch of other time either way.

I'm not saying that if you have 2 IPs flying a 4 hr ferry flight somewhere you should both be coded as IPs and log 2 IP & 2 Primary hrs each, but if you are an IP going down range with 2 new "first pilots" you are in the seat pretty much the whole time and you are instructing the whole time too. I've been on more than a few of those trips where I logged 15-20 hrs of other time so I didn't have to listen to the DO or CC question if I was trying to pad my airline resume. The IP/EPs could "get away with it" a little more, but most of us still walked out the door with 300-400 hrs of other time from there when we were IPs the entire assignment. My fault for not keeping my own detailed log book, so I'll "pay my fee" of doing a 90/10 calculation or just throw out half of my other time since cert. I'm just starting this process and haven't even started filling out Apps yet, I'm just hoping if I get a call it is reasonable to them to explain that a guy who upgraded to an MWS IP/EP in his first assignment wasn't sandbagging downstairs or in the bunk for 400 hrs... even our often mismanaged AF isn't that inefficient with their resources! I know there are several threads on here discussing this exact topic, I just figured I'd see what guys have been doing recently and what their interview experiences have been on this specific subject especially since the phones have started ringing from Majors.

 

All this stems from pilots allowing the Air Force to track their flight time. Gents (and ladies) teach your new pilots to keep a personal log book. Pilots are supposed to 1) put the gear down before every landing, 2) land at the correct airport, and 3) keep a log book.

 

[QUOTE=Rusty17;1559615]At my next Base we had a new Sq and OG Commander who were as big of a box checking company man tandem as you get and VERY anti-airline. If you mentioned the word airline anywhere near them you could kiss any OPR strat goodbye. The quote I heard all the time regarding logging time on 781s from both of them was, "This isn't Southwest lead in, you guys aren't going to log all IP or Primary time!"
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That's one way to keep retention up. Make sure guys can't log enough time to get hired.

 

I think that's a major foul making guys NOT log certain time that they were legally able to log just to keep them from building an airline resume...that's about as bad as manipulating the 781s in the other direction.

It's also annoying to know there's leadership out there who will hold something against you for thinking of a future outside the Air Force. Out of 100 Lieutenants that graduate UPT, 97 will make Captain. 75 will pin on Major. 45 will pin on Lt Colonel, and about 20 will make Colonel. Only a handful will pin on GO rank. So since 80 or so of those Lieutenants will likely be out at 20 years or earlier (and still have plenty of time for a second career), what's with the hate towards those that are planning for such?

I never could wrap my mind around those leaders that expected all of us to prep for careers as O-6s or above...statistically, very few of us were going to make it that far.

 

To be honest, I wouldn't care about splitting time evenly if there weren't this other time issue. The problem with the mentality of these managers (I won't call them leaders because they aren't) is that they have decided they want to spend a 20+ yr career in the military and chances are that they have stepped on enough people along the way to O-5/O-6 that they would likely get black listed by any airline anyway.

Another major problem with these guys is that a lot of them aren't particularly good pilots and have a handful of hooked check rides on their records so whenever the slightest thing goes wrong with a flight for one of their crews they are spring loaded to hand out a "Commander directed" Q-3. I've heard these types a million times say, "With Q-3s there are two kinds of pilots, those who have them and those who will." Ummm… yeah, I get that misery loves company, but stop trying to overcompensate for your poor pilot skills by trying to even the playing field… Capt Snuffy busted his level off altitude by 100 ft and corrected it right away, you landed on the wrong damn runway to get your Q-3!!! BTW Colonel… 17 yrs of flying as a Nav and Pilot and no Q-3s for me!

I'll stop venting and get back on the subject. I think the only way to do it is keep a separate log book. I actually kept up pretty good for a while and would make copies of 781s after every flight, but at one point a few years back they had us start leaving the forms and 781s in the jet or having the SARM/MX guys actually meeting us at the jet in a little trailer to take down all the info. There obviously wasn't a copier out at the jet so the guys who were just using 781s to keep records lost that option. I will say that in my experience I've only seen one or two flights not make it into the system and we were eventually able to track down the 781 and get the time entered, so losing time hasn't been an issue. Its just the stupid way we track it in the AF Heavy world that doesn't match the FAA which makes things painful.

 

My $.02

1. Re: keep a logbook because HARMS is screwed up advice-- be careful, if your logbook is way out of whack from what your USAF transcript shows, your interview could turn into a logbook review, which always equals a no-hire.

2. Pre AC cert, ditch Other time. Post AC count all Other (and P/S)time as PIC minus 10%. To those who argue you can't log PIC time from the bunk-- well, who was the PIC then? The copilot? Okay then, I have some PIC time coming to me from when I was a copilot, which I have not accounted for. Once I add that in, I'm right back to where I was, so it's all the same.

3. AC and IP time = PIC. EP time does not, except on locals, even then I'm not sure. I may be wrong but I believe that 60 hour OME has the young AC candidate as the A code, not the EP. And when I'm getting my annual IP check, I believe I'm the A code, not the EP.

4. Confused? I try to look at the airlines intent, not what the FAA definitions say. They are hiring future Capts, they want to know how much experience you have in command, I.e. How many times have you signed for the jet, not how much stick time you have.

Standing by to get counter argued......

 

100% agree with 1,2 and 4… disagree with 3 depending on what you flew and even when you flew it. OME, spot check, local mission check of an IP… if you were coded as an EP you were responsible for everything that happened on that jet no matter what. We went from OMEs to spot checks and back to OMEs… I did a spot check as an AC where I had the A Code because you were certed as an AC first and then got a spot check within 6 months (almost always on your first trip), but by the time I became an EP it had changed again and I always had the A Code. Think of it this way… as the coded EP you have the ability (and requirement) to instantly un-qualify any pilot on the crew at anytime if needed. I always just took the A code and told the guy getting the check ride that he was running the mission/local. Even on a local check we usually loaded it up with guys who needed currency so even on an IP check I'd have the IP run the mission and act as the A code until we completed his check ride mins and then I would kick him out and send him downstairs… then it was usually a pretty fair expectation that anyone who was in the no-notice window was going to get one. Guys in the no-notice window loved getting on check rides where I was the EP because they knew with me there would be just as much instructing as there was evaluating. I digress…

Also, in the C-17 anyway, when we did OMEs the "candidate" was not certed as an AC until after the OME was complete so they couldn't have the A code. They would sometimes have another AC take the A Code if needed (EP was on jump orders and couldn't stay out the whole time), but usually the EP just took it. It was dumb, but they actually made up some stupid letter code that meant "in command when in the seat" for the guy getting the OME. Pretty dumb considering the EP needed to be in the other seat for all critical phases of flight, so it was pretty pointless.

 

Thank God for single seat jets. Sorry you guys are having to deal with this.

 

Was gonna say the same. It's all PIC and all my EP time was as well since nobody else was in the airplane with me. Nonetheless the HARM sure did a nice job of jacking up my records. Took me a month to iron it all out after I retired. Looking back, I should have spent the 60 seconds a day to keep a logbook. Doing it after the fact was painful.

 

I lost about 35 hours in the first two years and almost missed an AC upgrade class because of it. Fortunately, this was back in the day when there were actual 7-level experts in the group HARM office who would sit down with you and review stuff (back in the bubble sheet days and printouts on 8-part green/white computer paper!).

Back then, I was keeping a logbook, so it helped. But as I upgraded, time seemed less important.

So the next time I lost a bunch of time, I didn't realize it until years later. This occurred when we transitioned from the old bubble sheet system to the new oracle-based system in the late '90s. I have huge gaps in my master ARMS printout - months and months of gaps. I saved every annual review copy, but never actually looked at them until I was about a year out. At that point, it was too late to do anything. Use the annual reviews to compare your numbers with what you should be keeping in a logbook so you can catch a mistake while there's still time to fix it.

This is made worse by different communities doing things differently as well.

Disagree. The EP ALWAYS has the "real" A-code...in other words, regardless of what your flight orders say, the EP has the ultimate responsibility if he is actively evaluating...which he should always be doing...even if he isn't actively logging EP time.

Just like an IP sitting right seat for a young AC who has the A-code on the orders has ultimate responsibility to "fix things" when they go pear shaped.

It's easy to figure out who has the ultimate responsibility - who is the SQ/DO going to yell out loudest?