NetJets vs Flexjet?
03-23-2023 | 06:29 AM
#151
Line Holder
Joined: Apr 2016
Posts: 309
Likes: 0
Can you contradict yourself anymore? You are saying the lack of Unions is not why Flex has gained, it’s just due to the pilot shortage just like "Delta, Alaska, Spirit, etc.". So if it’s SIMPLY due to the pilot shortage and NOT due to more flexibility by not having a Union, why hasnt NJ made the same advancements? Are they not facing a pilot shortage as bad as Delta????
03-23-2023 | 06:49 AM
#152
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2008
Posts: 939
Likes: 6
From: Standing in front of the tank with a shopping bag
We all owe NJ Pilots a debt of gratitude..
Again, you are contradicting yourself...There is a pilot shortage, therefore, pay goes up, basic supply and demand economics we were taught in High School. Then you say "our gains have led to your gains", is it the pilot shortage or your gains? If you believe NJ is the center of the 135/91k market and pay at all operators is a function strictly of NJ, how do you fit your ego into your blazer? There are MANY pilots who are not represented by a union that is making WAY more money then they were in the past are you saying that is due to NJ? Do you believe NJ would be paying you what they are paying you IF THERE WAS NOT A PILOT SHORTAGE just because you have a union? SInce times are good for us (as in pilots) now, you have been able to go back to a well and get concessions (yes, the same concessions Flex has had to give to be comeptitive without a union). When times go bad, do you not think NJ is going to come back to the Union and ask for concessions?
When the Netjets pilots “stormed the beaches” in 2005 and fought for/earned their Contract ’05 by picketing Wall Street, Berkshire Hathaway HQ, and the Kentucky Derby, ALL pilots in this sector benefitted by the rising tide created by the Netjets industry-Leading Contract, BEFORE any pilot shortage existed (In fact, there was a pilot surplus with many Part 121 pilots still laid off from September 11). It is a known-fact that you can research on this forum, that pay and QOL increased for Flex and other pilots BECAUSE of the downward pressure created by the Netjets pilot’s CBA. Other companies had to raise their compensation and QOL in order to keep their pilots and to dissuade their pilots from organizing their own Unions to mimic the Netjets pilots successes: My former company specifically noted Netjets Contract ‘05 as a reason that we were getting our pay raises and a 7/7 schedule, and other companies were making similar offerings. WE ALL OWE THE Netjets PILOTS A DEBT OF GRATITUDE FOR FIGHTING FOR THEIR Contract ‘05 AND PROVING THAT PART 91K/PART 135 CAN BE A VIABLE CAREER IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY!
While you are correct that the Pilot Shortage has had a HUGE impact on increasing all pilots pay and benefits today, there was NO pilot shortage in 2005 when the efforts of the Netjets pilots created waters that floated all ships higher. We are all better off because of the heavy lifting of the Netjets pilots, and when just one pilot wins, we all win. Netjets pilots proved that it didn’t take a pilot shortage, or supply and demand, to demand better pay and working conditions for themselves and made their jobs, and ours, into a career.. Finally, remember that the rest of the non-represented pilots being at-will employees, those gains can be taken away at any time on the whim of our respective managements, including Flex. Netjets, and all Part 121 pilots, are protected from that through their respective CBA’s.
Last edited by B727DRVR; 03-23-2023 at 07:00 AM.
03-23-2023 | 07:47 AM
#153
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 281
Likes: 9
Absolutely they can, and I can choose to work for them or not, its why I love America! There are many jobs that dont have a Union, and at ANY of them (including the one you work for) the company can make decisions and the employees can make decisions, its the balance of the 2 that makes a company strong. Yes the company will pay us as little as they can to get the pilots they need, and I will work for the maximum I can get at the job I want. You are kidding yourself if you think the REASON NJ pay is what it is is becasue of the Union. NJ will pay the minimum it can to adequatley staff the company. Keep in mind there were unions at regionals not long ago as the regional guys were lucky to make minimum wage.
03-23-2023 | 07:57 AM
#154
Line Holder
Joined: Aug 2018
Posts: 281
Likes: 9
Respectfully, your assertions show a lack of knowledge in the history of Part 91K/Part 135 compensation and working conditions before the Netjets pilots stood up and fought for us all. In 2002, after 9/11, Netjets was one of the ONLY companies hiring from a pool of THOUSANDS of furloughed airline pilots on the street. Working conditions there were awful, IMHO, at the time where you could only live in 5 bases, you had to be in position 12 hours before duty on, and starting pay for an Ultra was $28,000. 21 years is not that long ago that $28,000 was a lot of money. Many jobs, including Flex and Flight Options, were considered better.
When the Netjets pilots “stormed the beaches” in 2005 and fought for/earned their Contract ’05 by picketing Wall Street, Berkshire Hathaway HQ, and the Kentucky Derby, ALL pilots in this sector benefitted by the rising tide created by the Netjets industry-Leading Contract, BEFORE any pilot shortage existed (In fact, there was a pilot surplus with many Part 121 pilots still laid off from September 11). It is a known-fact that you can research on this forum, that pay and QOL increased for Flex and other pilots BECAUSE of the downward pressure created by the Netjets pilot’s CBA. Other companies had to raise their compensation and QOL in order to keep their pilots and to dissuade their pilots from organizing their own Unions to mimic the Netjets pilots successes: My former company specifically noted Netjets Contract ‘05 as a reason that we were getting our pay raises and a 7/7 schedule, and other companies were making similar offerings. WE ALL OWE THE Netjets PILOTS A DEBT OF GRATITUDE FOR FIGHTING FOR THEIR Contract ‘05 AND PROVING THAT PART 91K/PART 135 CAN BE A VIABLE CAREER IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY!
While you are correct that the Pilot Shortage has had a HUGE impact on increasing all pilots pay and benefits today, there was NO pilot shortage in 2005 when the efforts of the Netjets pilots created waters that floated all ships higher. We are all better off because of the heavy lifting of the Netjets pilots, and when just one pilot wins, we all win. Netjets pilots proved that it didn’t take a pilot shortage, or supply and demand, to demand better pay and working conditions for themselves and made their jobs, and ours, into a career.. Finally, remember that the rest of the non-represented pilots being at-will employees, those gains can be taken away at any time on the whim of our respective managements, including Flex. Netjets, and all Part 121 pilots, are protected from that through their respective CBA’s.
When the Netjets pilots “stormed the beaches” in 2005 and fought for/earned their Contract ’05 by picketing Wall Street, Berkshire Hathaway HQ, and the Kentucky Derby, ALL pilots in this sector benefitted by the rising tide created by the Netjets industry-Leading Contract, BEFORE any pilot shortage existed (In fact, there was a pilot surplus with many Part 121 pilots still laid off from September 11). It is a known-fact that you can research on this forum, that pay and QOL increased for Flex and other pilots BECAUSE of the downward pressure created by the Netjets pilot’s CBA. Other companies had to raise their compensation and QOL in order to keep their pilots and to dissuade their pilots from organizing their own Unions to mimic the Netjets pilots successes: My former company specifically noted Netjets Contract ‘05 as a reason that we were getting our pay raises and a 7/7 schedule, and other companies were making similar offerings. WE ALL OWE THE Netjets PILOTS A DEBT OF GRATITUDE FOR FIGHTING FOR THEIR Contract ‘05 AND PROVING THAT PART 91K/PART 135 CAN BE A VIABLE CAREER IN THE AVIATION INDUSTRY!
While you are correct that the Pilot Shortage has had a HUGE impact on increasing all pilots pay and benefits today, there was NO pilot shortage in 2005 when the efforts of the Netjets pilots created waters that floated all ships higher. We are all better off because of the heavy lifting of the Netjets pilots, and when just one pilot wins, we all win. Netjets pilots proved that it didn’t take a pilot shortage, or supply and demand, to demand better pay and working conditions for themselves and made their jobs, and ours, into a career.. Finally, remember that the rest of the non-represented pilots being at-will employees, those gains can be taken away at any time on the whim of our respective managements, including Flex. Netjets, and all Part 121 pilots, are protected from that through their respective CBA’s.
03-23-2023 | 08:02 AM
#155
Line Holder
Joined: Mar 2023
Posts: 373
Likes: 0
NJ may have been the biggest, but lets put it in context, what was the annual salary of a 1st year FO before and 1st year FO after they "stormed the beaches". The entire aviation industry is responsible for the wages we have. Keep in mind a CURRENT 1st year FO is ONLY guaranteed $79k (on the 8/6) where Flex is guaranteed $106k (comparable 8/6). When did NJ become unionized?
03-23-2023 | 11:17 AM
#156
On Reserve
Joined: Jun 2019
Posts: 137
Likes: 0
The pilots are only taking advantage of what the union screwed up. We lost all our leverage when they didn’t sunset the 2.5 when they had the chance. The company has no reason to negotiate, and are showing it. 50ish people are showing up to class with 1000 hours each and if they stick around 2 years it’s still cheaper than us old 20 plus year folks. Add all the pilots working extra days for 2.5 to the mix, they can wait us out and hope for a recession. BTW.. how many would be extending like crazy for 1.5?
Apparently we do make Delta wages..you just have to work 50 more days a year than they do!
Apparently we do make Delta wages..you just have to work 50 more days a year than they do!
03-23-2023 | 12:22 PM
#157
Mmmm wine
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 431
From: The Jet
The union people know they screwed up with that LOA in December. That's why the full assault now with the picketing and WSJ ads. According to the MB, 75% of new-hires are recommended. The class of 53 that started on Monday coupled with the VAWD's leaves us with a shortsighted pilot group with no leverage.
The pilots at NJA who have been longing for airline wages and treatment have been waiting forever. It ain't coming...
03-23-2023 | 12:41 PM
#158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined: Sep 2022
Posts: 182
Likes: 0
The pilots are only taking advantage of what the union screwed up. We lost all our leverage when they didn’t sunset the 2.5 when they had the chance. The company has no reason to negotiate, and are showing it. 50ish people are showing up to class with 1000 hours each and if they stick around 2 years it’s still cheaper than us old 20 plus year folks. Add all the pilots working extra days for 2.5 to the mix, they can wait us out and hope for a recession. BTW.. how many would be extending like crazy for 1.5?
Apparently we do make Delta wages..you just have to work 50 more days a year than they do!
Apparently we do make Delta wages..you just have to work 50 more days a year than they do!
Even if it were legal to suggest a reduction in VAWD/VEDs (and I am in no way doing so) what would that say? Now we want the pie to be smaller?
Just like FDP, this was a colossal mistake.
03-23-2023 | 12:58 PM
#160
Mmmm wine
Joined: Feb 2020
Posts: 1,906
Likes: 431
From: The Jet
Nope.
Honestly, it's ok too. NetJets isn't an airline. You can make decent money there and live in places outside of an airline domicile. Not everyone wants to work at an airline and wants/needs airline wages and benefits. For better or worse, NetJets is in its own exclusive industry category.
Honestly, it's ok too. NetJets isn't an airline. You can make decent money there and live in places outside of an airline domicile. Not everyone wants to work at an airline and wants/needs airline wages and benefits. For better or worse, NetJets is in its own exclusive industry category.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
