Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba TA Countdown
12-11-2010, 05:30 AM
#1001
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 88
Originally Posted by cencal83406
Re: Min 11 day off for everyone....
Does anyone know if this means reserves will still be working for free one day per month every 31-day bid period????
For those at Mesaba not in the know, we currently use 30- and 31-day months throughout the year.
We're guaranteed 3.75 hours per day pro rata, or 75 hours per month. On a 30-day month, that equates to 20 days of reserve, 10 days off. 20 * 3.75 = 75....
31 day months, you have 21 days of reserve, 10 days off, and still get 75 hours of pay (even though PBS shows credit of 78.75 hours)... for those keeping calculations, 31 day months net reserves a pro rata amount of 3.57 hours of pay. HOWEVER, if you call in sick, you are then docked 3.75...
Food for thought guys.... are reserves going to get taken care of, or not?
Does anyone know if this means reserves will still be working for free one day per month every 31-day bid period????
For those at Mesaba not in the know, we currently use 30- and 31-day months throughout the year.
We're guaranteed 3.75 hours per day pro rata, or 75 hours per month. On a 30-day month, that equates to 20 days of reserve, 10 days off. 20 * 3.75 = 75....
31 day months, you have 21 days of reserve, 10 days off, and still get 75 hours of pay (even though PBS shows credit of 78.75 hours)... for those keeping calculations, 31 day months net reserves a pro rata amount of 3.57 hours of pay. HOWEVER, if you call in sick, you are then docked 3.75...
Food for thought guys.... are reserves going to get taken care of, or not?
12-11-2010, 05:48 AM
#1002
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,193
Originally Posted by BladeRunner
Min days is 11 off period. Leap year; frog year; who cares it's 11 days off.
so on a 31 day month, you're working 20 days, paid for 19?
I can see it now. It's not just about the days off... the guarantee should be adjusted to properly account for the days on... if that means on a 19 day-on month, you make less, what sayeth you?
The daily pro rata guarantee can't possibly be the same on 30 or 31 day months, because 75 hours/pro rata only gives one answer. So, we're still going to have screwed reserve pilots who call in sick on the longer month and get docked sick pay as if they were working the shorter month.
12-11-2010, 06:02 AM
#1003
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: SAAB
Posts: 300
Originally Posted by cencal83406
But that's the thing.... they're not being sneaky at all... they guarantee 10 days off a month (to start with)... not 11... so, we were never entitled to 11 in a 31-day month. That's the Pinnacle way. I'm more upset that half the year reserves don't get paid the appropriate amount for the number of days worked, and yet if they call in sick, they're docked like they did get paid that way.
The worst part is... the grievance committee allows this to continue, since "precedence has been set".
And by the way, not only do the reserves NOT get 11 days off a month during 31 day months, I'm sure you're well aware that the way Pinnacle loves to staff, reserves are really only guaranteed FAA minimum (24 hours off every 7 days/ protected to 1 DAY off in 7 per 1999 CBA) days off per month. So as little as 4 days off.
The worst part is... the grievance committee allows this to continue, since "precedence has been set".
And by the way, not only do the reserves NOT get 11 days off a month during 31 day months, I'm sure you're well aware that the way Pinnacle loves to staff, reserves are really only guaranteed FAA minimum (24 hours off every 7 days/ protected to 1 DAY off in 7 per 1999 CBA) days off per month. So as little as 4 days off.
12-11-2010, 06:21 AM
#1004
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,193
Originally Posted by xjsaab
Wait at see for the language to be published. We currently have stipulations that it's Calendar days off not a 24 hour span off in 7.
I don't get it guys... everyone is so focused on the 11 days off that you're missing the core issue:
Pilots will be paid equally whether working 19 or 20 days; pilots will have sick time deducted "equally" if taking a sick day on a 10 day-on month.
There's the issue... regardless of the days off, the pay needs to match the days on.
According to my calculations... on the "short" months, daily pro rata for the days on is 3.95 (3.95 * 19 = 75). So one can expect that the sick bank deduction will be equal to that.
However, if you're working 20 days in the month, you'll be getting a daily pro rata of 3.75 (3.75 * 20 = 75). If you call in sick this month, you'll be charged 3.95. 3.75-3.95 = -.2 hours. So, every time you call in sick on a "long" month, you're LOSING 12 minutes of pay. Gone, into the ether.
Seriously guys, I know we're getting 11... I want to know if the PAY issue is fixed... or if anyone else is concerned.
12-11-2010, 06:52 AM
#1006
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 939
Originally Posted by gojo
Does all guidance or advice have to come in the written form for you to believe? I also wonder why there was no mention of it in this weeks ALPA Fastread. Oh well, maybe next week
12-11-2010, 08:25 AM
#1007
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2007
Position: A better one than the last few years
Posts: 59
I'm not sure how pay works for you guys at 9E and how it is going to work going forward with the JCBA, but I would be inclined to think that it might work similar to how we have it at XJ currently. Try to think of it in annual terms instead of a month by month basis.
At XJ, regardless of pilot status we are paid our 75/month on a bi-weekly scale. The math comes out to 75x12=900 hours per year. That 900 hours is divided by 26 (number of pay periods) which comes to 34.62 hours. Every check we get is paid at 34.62 hours regardless of how many days there are in the month. With bi-weekly pay, you end up twice a year having a month were you get three checks in one month. So if you want to get technical, at XJ we are paid 69.24 hours for 10 months of the year, and for two months we 103.86. The pro-rata portion for time missed is removed on the check (pay period closest to the end of the month) where our over guarantee is also paid out.
The math adds up to the same amount of money regardless of how many day there are in the month or how many you work them. And actually, you are coming out better by calling in sick for a day and only having them dock you 3.75 hours of pay.
11 days off x 12 months = 132 days off annually
365 - 132 days off = 233 days worked
900 hours / 233 days = 3.86 hours/day
Clear as mud?
At XJ, regardless of pilot status we are paid our 75/month on a bi-weekly scale. The math comes out to 75x12=900 hours per year. That 900 hours is divided by 26 (number of pay periods) which comes to 34.62 hours. Every check we get is paid at 34.62 hours regardless of how many days there are in the month. With bi-weekly pay, you end up twice a year having a month were you get three checks in one month. So if you want to get technical, at XJ we are paid 69.24 hours for 10 months of the year, and for two months we 103.86. The pro-rata portion for time missed is removed on the check (pay period closest to the end of the month) where our over guarantee is also paid out.
The math adds up to the same amount of money regardless of how many day there are in the month or how many you work them. And actually, you are coming out better by calling in sick for a day and only having them dock you 3.75 hours of pay.
11 days off x 12 months = 132 days off annually
365 - 132 days off = 233 days worked
900 hours / 233 days = 3.86 hours/day
Clear as mud?
Last edited by RatherBGolfin; 12-11-2010 at 08:32 AM. Reason: spelling
12-11-2010, 08:43 AM
#1008
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: PIC Challenger 605
Posts: 454
I had been trying to stay silent during this, but I am sick of some people on here acting as if the Pinnacle MEC doesn't know what they are doing. I am sick of the "it's not our first rodeo" comments from Mesaba guys. I am sick of hearing how close we are to a contract. I want to give a little perspective to the people who have not dealt with the Pinnacle Management for very long.
Pretty much everybody reading this will know that the Pinnacle pilots reached a TA in August 2009. In September, we voted that garbage down and started a new period in our negotiations. The next few months were spent voting new members in to the MEC, doing a poll to figure out what the pilots wanted in a new contract, deciding on a path for negotiations, and cleaning up the language in the failed TA. The language was of course very important, since our management loves to interpret things differently than how we do.
Actual negotiations didn't really start until the week of March 8th. Negotiations then went on for 4 of the next 5 weeks. We heard from management how much they wanted to get this done. We bought it, again, or at least faked it well enough to act in good faith. Here are direct quotes from the negotiating committee updates that we got over the next few months.
Oh, and the gaps between some of these dates is because of NMB availability.
3/16/10 - "Today, we started with our second of four scheduled weeks of negotiations with the company. We are building upon the good momentum established during last week’s session where many of the lagging problems were resolved. Additionally, we were able to agree in concept on many other issues that are in various states of drafting."
4/09/10 - "While there was considerable anticipation that a deal might be reached this week, in the end there was too much work remaining on the outstanding sections. A mutual decision was made to extend our direct negotiations period beyond the originally agreed to four week period in order to preserve the momentum we have generated thus far."
4/9/10 - "After the review of the outstanding issues, we started with provisions regarding pay and scheduling shortfalls when returning to service from leaves including medical, OJI, military, and personal. We continued the positive momentum and completed work in several other areas that needed improvement including call in honest provisions, home study allotments, as well as several scheduling issues."
5/11/10 - "The past several weeks have been productive in finding resolution to many of the outstanding issues identified in the pilot group polling and editorial review. The list of open items has been paired down significantly even from where we were just a month ago. Continuous updates will be broadcast throughout the week detailing our progress at this week’s session. Stand by for more updates."
5/11/10 - Today’s contract negotiating session with the Company was very productive. Early in the day, we secured final agreement on all of the proposed changes to both Section 1 (Scope) and the Parent Letter that binds Pinnacle Corp. to our pilot group. The changes in these two documents, while not immense, clarify, strengthen, and fill the gaps of the agreement made in the first TA. We also clarified language in Section 3 (Compensation) that makes it more clear on the conditions required for the listed carriers to be included in the industry average.
Later in the day we continued work on a multifaceted package deal that focuses on a number of pilot availability issues, including eleventh day off for reserves, junior assigning, extensions, and a number of other reserve issues. The topics within this package have been narrowed down significantly and we will continue working on this Wednesday morning. Successful resolution of this package will significantly reduce our list of open issues and allow us to move forward with the final issues."
5/13/10 - "Progressive movement towards a successor tentative agreement was made today. Resolution was had on all remaining vacation issues and provisions were agreed to that improve the administrative and structural issues with the reserve bucket lists. Provisions that allow pilot group visibility and association oversight of the bucket list were also added. Difficulty persisted and little progress was made on benefit issues, such as the retirement and insurance sections as well as several pilot availability issues that are on the table.
6/22/10 - "We started the day reviewing and clarifying the list of open issues still needing resolution to achieve a comprehensive agreement. We then proceeded to exchange proposals. Throughout the day, we were able to reach agreement on some issues including final resolution on pay scales and duration but we remain distant on several others.
6/23/10 - "Today’s negotiating session saw both parties at the table for over 11 hours. Many proposals were exchanged on retirement and insurance issues but no resolution was had on either subject."
6/24/10 - "Days two and three were spent primarily focused on proposals and discussion about retirement and insurance issues. The Company was largely unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion on any other topics. We were unable to close a significant gap in how far we are apart on these issues. Proposals from the Company insisted on drastic concessions in our medical insurance plan including:
In exchange for these massive cuts in our health insurance plan the company was only willing to offer a paltry 1.05% increase in the matching level of the 13+ year longevity step on our retirement plan. This retirement and insurance package represented significant concessions even when measured against our current contract’s provisions. These concessions, combined with no movement on the other important issues we presented, caused the week’s negotiations to end with no TA."
Next thing we new, we were put on ice by the NMB and within the week came announcement that the company had purchased Mesaba. You will notice that things were going great in negotiations right up until the last day. That was when the company came at us with the Retirement and Insurance plans.
Notice the similarities between those negotiations and what is currently going on. That whole process was just over 3 months, we are now over 2 months in to this process. We had multiple "deadlines" come up and we continued talks because of "momentum". At the end of 2 months of negotiating we had a lot of closed sections, but the big items (Insurance, Retirement, Compensation) remained open. Those same items are open today, just over 2 months in to negotiations.
Our MEC and our pilots thought now was the right time for picketing because we have seen this whole thing play out before. Yes, I know Pinnacle isn't alone in this anymore, but we are still fighting with the same management team. The sooner we all agree that the company probably isn't playing nice, the better for everybody.
Pretty much everybody reading this will know that the Pinnacle pilots reached a TA in August 2009. In September, we voted that garbage down and started a new period in our negotiations. The next few months were spent voting new members in to the MEC, doing a poll to figure out what the pilots wanted in a new contract, deciding on a path for negotiations, and cleaning up the language in the failed TA. The language was of course very important, since our management loves to interpret things differently than how we do.
Actual negotiations didn't really start until the week of March 8th. Negotiations then went on for 4 of the next 5 weeks. We heard from management how much they wanted to get this done. We bought it, again, or at least faked it well enough to act in good faith. Here are direct quotes from the negotiating committee updates that we got over the next few months.
Oh, and the gaps between some of these dates is because of NMB availability.
3/16/10 - "Today, we started with our second of four scheduled weeks of negotiations with the company. We are building upon the good momentum established during last week’s session where many of the lagging problems were resolved. Additionally, we were able to agree in concept on many other issues that are in various states of drafting."
4/09/10 - "While there was considerable anticipation that a deal might be reached this week, in the end there was too much work remaining on the outstanding sections. A mutual decision was made to extend our direct negotiations period beyond the originally agreed to four week period in order to preserve the momentum we have generated thus far."
4/9/10 - "After the review of the outstanding issues, we started with provisions regarding pay and scheduling shortfalls when returning to service from leaves including medical, OJI, military, and personal. We continued the positive momentum and completed work in several other areas that needed improvement including call in honest provisions, home study allotments, as well as several scheduling issues."
5/11/10 - "The past several weeks have been productive in finding resolution to many of the outstanding issues identified in the pilot group polling and editorial review. The list of open items has been paired down significantly even from where we were just a month ago. Continuous updates will be broadcast throughout the week detailing our progress at this week’s session. Stand by for more updates."
5/11/10 - Today’s contract negotiating session with the Company was very productive. Early in the day, we secured final agreement on all of the proposed changes to both Section 1 (Scope) and the Parent Letter that binds Pinnacle Corp. to our pilot group. The changes in these two documents, while not immense, clarify, strengthen, and fill the gaps of the agreement made in the first TA. We also clarified language in Section 3 (Compensation) that makes it more clear on the conditions required for the listed carriers to be included in the industry average.
Later in the day we continued work on a multifaceted package deal that focuses on a number of pilot availability issues, including eleventh day off for reserves, junior assigning, extensions, and a number of other reserve issues. The topics within this package have been narrowed down significantly and we will continue working on this Wednesday morning. Successful resolution of this package will significantly reduce our list of open issues and allow us to move forward with the final issues."
5/13/10 - "Progressive movement towards a successor tentative agreement was made today. Resolution was had on all remaining vacation issues and provisions were agreed to that improve the administrative and structural issues with the reserve bucket lists. Provisions that allow pilot group visibility and association oversight of the bucket list were also added. Difficulty persisted and little progress was made on benefit issues, such as the retirement and insurance sections as well as several pilot availability issues that are on the table.
6/22/10 - "We started the day reviewing and clarifying the list of open issues still needing resolution to achieve a comprehensive agreement. We then proceeded to exchange proposals. Throughout the day, we were able to reach agreement on some issues including final resolution on pay scales and duration but we remain distant on several others.
6/23/10 - "Today’s negotiating session saw both parties at the table for over 11 hours. Many proposals were exchanged on retirement and insurance issues but no resolution was had on either subject."
6/24/10 - "Days two and three were spent primarily focused on proposals and discussion about retirement and insurance issues. The Company was largely unwilling to engage in meaningful discussion on any other topics. We were unable to close a significant gap in how far we are apart on these issues. Proposals from the Company insisted on drastic concessions in our medical insurance plan including:
- 200% - 280% increase in the cost of single coverage premiums
- 130% - 140% increase in the cost of family coverage premiums
- 200% - 300% increase in the cost of single coverage deductibles
- 170% - 240% increase in the cost of family coverage deductibles
- $800 - $1300 increase in the yearly out of pocket maximum for singles
- $1600 - $2400 increase in the yearly out of pocket maximum for families
- Up to 550% increase in the cost of prescriptions (30-day supply)
- Up to 1100% increase in the cost of prescriptions (90-day supply)
- Cut the lifetime maximum to $1.5 million (down from the formerly agreed upon $3.0 million)
In exchange for these massive cuts in our health insurance plan the company was only willing to offer a paltry 1.05% increase in the matching level of the 13+ year longevity step on our retirement plan. This retirement and insurance package represented significant concessions even when measured against our current contract’s provisions. These concessions, combined with no movement on the other important issues we presented, caused the week’s negotiations to end with no TA."
Next thing we new, we were put on ice by the NMB and within the week came announcement that the company had purchased Mesaba. You will notice that things were going great in negotiations right up until the last day. That was when the company came at us with the Retirement and Insurance plans.
Notice the similarities between those negotiations and what is currently going on. That whole process was just over 3 months, we are now over 2 months in to this process. We had multiple "deadlines" come up and we continued talks because of "momentum". At the end of 2 months of negotiating we had a lot of closed sections, but the big items (Insurance, Retirement, Compensation) remained open. Those same items are open today, just over 2 months in to negotiations.
Our MEC and our pilots thought now was the right time for picketing because we have seen this whole thing play out before. Yes, I know Pinnacle isn't alone in this anymore, but we are still fighting with the same management team. The sooner we all agree that the company probably isn't playing nice, the better for everybody.
12-11-2010, 09:08 AM
#1009
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 691
Reading all the propaganda from all the 9E pilots on here you would think the world revolves around you guys. I'll agree with you that the XJ and Colgan MECs might have been better off keeping silent but common sense would dictate that when 3 parties vote and two vote not to picket that the simple majority would win. What kind of system are we running here if a majority vote loses? Going out rogue against the majority showed which pilot group is choosing to break the unity of the three pilot groups. You can spin it anyway you want but your pilot group is going against the majority. And I'll take the silence of ALPA National for the time being as a sign that they are not supporting the informational picketing.
12-11-2010, 10:15 AM
#1010
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Position: A320 FO
Posts: 900
Originally Posted by jayray2
Reading all the propaganda from all the 9E pilots on here you would think the world revolves around you guys. I'll agree with you that the XJ and Colgan MECs might have been better off keeping silent but common sense would dictate that when 3 parties vote and two vote not to picket that the simple majority would win. What kind of system are we running here if a majority vote loses? Going out rogue against the majority showed which pilot group is choosing to break the unity of the three pilot groups. You can spin it anyway you want but your pilot group is going against the majority. And I'll take the silence of ALPA National for the time being as a sign that they are not supporting the informational picketing.
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