Pinnacle/Colgan/Mesaba TA Countdown
12-05-2010, 03:25 PM
#922
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
12-05-2010, 03:42 PM
#923
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
You really can't compare what you did for 5 years to what is going on now. I feel for you guys for all you went through and it truely stinks that this merger is taking place now, but it's a completely new element. And the basis of what I said before is undeniable. You guys all complained about the 45 day time line and again about the 2.5 day addition. Yet when it didnt work you are unwilling to accept that it didn't work. What if they would have said February was the deadline from the start? Think about how you would feel as of December 3rd under that situation. Hardly anyone would even be talking about the negotiation right now.
To respond real quick, before I go to the grocery store with my food stamp card... what is this about complaining? What exactly were we complaining about with this 45 day session? All I heard from other pilots was, "This 45 HARD LIMIT seems like a bit of a reach, but I hope it gets done." Do you not understand the basis for our skepticism? Why would it stand to reason, to us (9E pilots), that something that has taken almost 6 years with whatever progress you may claim will get done in 45 days? We all got the email after the 45 days of the open items left to be TA'd. If those items could not be agreed upon in 45 days, let alone 6 years, then what makes us think that they will get done in 2.5 days? To say we are complaining is a bit unfair if you ask me. Except for the new Mesaba guys on property, all 9E pilots have been around for at least 2 and half to 3 years. We have all been through the "things are going well this week, we should have a contract at weeks end," or "the company has asked us to come to the table, we take this as a good sign." The messages that are being given to the 1200+ pilots here at 9E are nothing but a tease. I don't mean this in a negative way, but if you had to keep reading all the stuff we get, you would be a little frustrated as well. Complaining, my friend, is bit harsh. These pilots are tired of the tease and the lack of action. Im surprised more didn't come from these failed negotiations as far as reactions from pilots. Do you know why it didn't? We didn't expect anything to get done. It would have been nice and I am sure people would have been happy, but honestly, why would anyone expect to get done in 2.5 days what couldn't be done in 6 years? Complaining, the more I think about it, the more frustrated I get by your comment. Did you see what was still left open after the 2.5 days? Pretty much everything. If complaining is what you want to call it, then I would say its justified. There is something going on that we don't know about which is obvious by the size the of emails we've been getting, short. Maybe if we didn't have to wait until Monday then half of the posts in this thread would never exist and we wouldn't have to see your comments about the complaining by our overworked, tired and abused pilots. rant over, peace out, I could go on for years.
12-05-2010, 07:39 PM
#924
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 310
To respond real quick, before I go to the grocery store with my food stamp card... what is this about complaining? What exactly were we complaining about with this 45 day session? All I heard from other pilots was, "This 45 HARD LIMIT seems like a bit of a reach, but I hope it gets done." Do you not understand the basis for our skepticism? Why would it stand to reason, to us (9E pilots), that something that has taken almost 6 years with whatever progress you may claim will get done in 45 days? We all got the email after the 45 days of the open items left to be TA'd. If those items could not be agreed upon in 45 days, let alone 6 years, then what makes us think that they will get done in 2.5 days? To say we are complaining is a bit unfair if you ask me. Except for the new Mesaba guys on property, all 9E pilots have been around for at least 2 and half to 3 years. We have all been through the "things are going well this week, we should have a contract at weeks end," or "the company has asked us to come to the table, we take this as a good sign." The messages that are being given to the 1200+ pilots here at 9E are nothing but a tease. I don't mean this in a negative way, but if you had to keep reading all the stuff we get, you would be a little frustrated as well. Complaining, my friend, is bit harsh. These pilots are tired of the tease and the lack of action. Im surprised more didn't come from these failed negotiations as far as reactions from pilots. Do you know why it didn't? We didn't expect anything to get done. It would have been nice and I am sure people would have been happy, but honestly, why would anyone expect to get done in 2.5 days what couldn't be done in 6 years? Complaining, the more I think about it, the more frustrated I get by your comment. Did you see what was still left open after the 2.5 days? Pretty much everything. If complaining is what you want to call it, then I would say its justified. There is something going on that we don't know about which is obvious by the size the of emails we've been getting, short. Maybe if we didn't have to wait until Monday then half of the posts in this thread would never exist and we wouldn't have to see your comments about the complaining by our overworked, tired and abused pilots. rant over, peace out, I could go on for years.
12-05-2010, 08:47 PM
#925
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 977
Umm... yes. Complaining. I don't know what else one could possibly call it. So many on here were (insert your better choice of words here) about how a 45 day and additional 3 day timeline was never going to work. Of course we all had some optimism, some more than others, but it was pretty obvious from the start that it wouldn't work. I wasn't bummed out by not getting it done in such a short time frame considering the scope of what was actually trying to be done. Bringing 3 separate companies together is an enormus task and a completely different thing than what pinnacle was going through on their own. I also understand the views that many have expressed as to how the company shouldn't have put the nov 15 deadline if it really wasn't possible but there was a lot of progress made in just a couple months considering what was at stake and had they origionally said february for a deadline, it would have been a much different story.
Just like the Colgan crash your abusive work policies and bottom-feeding training department caused...company's response "We fixed it."
Company "needs it done," company "wants it done," company "fixed it."
The variance between what Pinnacle management says and what actually exists in reality (and in action) is often very large, and very obvious to those of us who have been on property for more than a few years.
Last edited by flapshalfspeed; 12-05-2010 at 09:54 PM.
12-06-2010, 05:00 AM
#926
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 310
Typical management here, folks: "There was a lot of progress made in just a couple months." OH REALLY???
Just like the Colgan crash your abusive work policies and bottom-feeding training department caused...company's response "We fixed it."
Company "needs it done," company "wants it done," company "fixed it."
The variance between what Pinnacle management says and what actually exists in reality (and in action) is often very large, and very obvious to those of us who have been on property for more than a few years.
Just like the Colgan crash your abusive work policies and bottom-feeding training department caused...company's response "We fixed it."
Company "needs it done," company "wants it done," company "fixed it."
The variance between what Pinnacle management says and what actually exists in reality (and in action) is often very large, and very obvious to those of us who have been on property for more than a few years.
12-06-2010, 05:56 AM
#927
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: CRJ - Hell Hole
Posts: 236
PAPA MIKE aka PINNACLE MANAGEMENT:
You don't get it. You really don't.
We elected people who would negotiate a fair contract. Those men went in to negotiate a FAIR contract. We don't want an industry leading contract. Just a fair one. We also want a safe contract equally.
Here's some reasons why Pinnacle Pilots HATE management:
Scheduling an 8 hour reduced rest overnight is another accident waiting to happen. When you have 8 hours in Toronto which requires clearing customs both ways to and from the hotel, at a huge airport, you only get 5 hours of sleep. Then when the next day you call in fatigue you get called in for a "fact finding meeting." You are told it's no big deal, but when you sit down and they record everything you say on a tape recorder in front of 2-3 managers, that's very scary. You feel like your job is on the line. This creates pressure to never call in fatigue.
When the phone rings continuously from scheduling on your day off to junior assign you, it's demorilizing. Sometimes a family member might answer the phone accidently and then you have to go into work on your day off. If you refuse.... then you have to come in for a fact finding meeting again. Why? Because you were ABSENT ON YOUR DAY OFF!!
Buddy passes are not honored. It says it in black and white in the CBA that the pilots will get buddy pass privileges on company Pinnacle aircraft. What has the company done to make up for that? Nothing. They don't care.
We are professionals. But yet treated as middle schoolers who must have a doctors note everytime we call in sick. How rediculous is that! Management needs to discipline the sick call abusers who have created a name for themselves. They know who they are, deal with them and them alone! If a pilot has 4 sick calls in a year, then deal with that person in a professional caring manner. If a pilot calls in sick once in two years, don't make them bring a doctors note it just infuriates them to no end.
Management wont hardly ever come to the crew rooms to talk to us. But when we do run into them, they dont have the guts to face the tough issues. They are cowards.
Committment to communication is as joke. Chatauqua pilots get daily updates from their CEO through an email system. Pinnacle pilots used to get a weekly memo from Phil T. Now it's a monthly message. Check the website to see when the last message is dated.
When you call scheduling to tell them your wife and kids are sick and can't come to work, they ask if you are sick or healthy. You try to show integrity and tell them that you are healthy, but need to care for your family. They mistrip you! It happened to me.
Phil Trenary comes out on thanksgiving and christmas to promote working on the holidays. But he only stays long enough to get his picture taken and then drives back home to be with his family. True!
Overall management is rude and detached from the pilot group.
Our pilots are the frontline managers who are getting flights out ontime day to day. They are so professional to continue this, yet management keeps dumping on them.
Who is our chief pilot?
When was the last time he held a pilot meeting?
Does he keep line currency?
From what I heard, Phil Trenary was an awesome CEO back in the late 90's. Now that he's had his hand in the company cookie jar bank account and taken millions, he's become spoiled. He's become so spoiled he is now lazy. He is an amazing magician who pretends to work hard and charms people with his smile and ability to read somebody's name tag as if he remembered it on his own merit. But what has he done? Not much, just takes stock options, bonuses and a large salary.
Pinnacle Pilots don't want to make more than industry average. But we do want to get treated like humans. Which means, adequate sleep, and reasonable duty days and in general following the golden rule.
Papa Mike: You must not be a regular line pilot who is current. If you walked a mile in our mocassins today, you would totally understand why our morale is totally beat down.
You don't get it. You really don't.
We elected people who would negotiate a fair contract. Those men went in to negotiate a FAIR contract. We don't want an industry leading contract. Just a fair one. We also want a safe contract equally.
Here's some reasons why Pinnacle Pilots HATE management:
Scheduling an 8 hour reduced rest overnight is another accident waiting to happen. When you have 8 hours in Toronto which requires clearing customs both ways to and from the hotel, at a huge airport, you only get 5 hours of sleep. Then when the next day you call in fatigue you get called in for a "fact finding meeting." You are told it's no big deal, but when you sit down and they record everything you say on a tape recorder in front of 2-3 managers, that's very scary. You feel like your job is on the line. This creates pressure to never call in fatigue.
When the phone rings continuously from scheduling on your day off to junior assign you, it's demorilizing. Sometimes a family member might answer the phone accidently and then you have to go into work on your day off. If you refuse.... then you have to come in for a fact finding meeting again. Why? Because you were ABSENT ON YOUR DAY OFF!!
Buddy passes are not honored. It says it in black and white in the CBA that the pilots will get buddy pass privileges on company Pinnacle aircraft. What has the company done to make up for that? Nothing. They don't care.
We are professionals. But yet treated as middle schoolers who must have a doctors note everytime we call in sick. How rediculous is that! Management needs to discipline the sick call abusers who have created a name for themselves. They know who they are, deal with them and them alone! If a pilot has 4 sick calls in a year, then deal with that person in a professional caring manner. If a pilot calls in sick once in two years, don't make them bring a doctors note it just infuriates them to no end.
Management wont hardly ever come to the crew rooms to talk to us. But when we do run into them, they dont have the guts to face the tough issues. They are cowards.
Committment to communication is as joke. Chatauqua pilots get daily updates from their CEO through an email system. Pinnacle pilots used to get a weekly memo from Phil T. Now it's a monthly message. Check the website to see when the last message is dated.
When you call scheduling to tell them your wife and kids are sick and can't come to work, they ask if you are sick or healthy. You try to show integrity and tell them that you are healthy, but need to care for your family. They mistrip you! It happened to me.
Phil Trenary comes out on thanksgiving and christmas to promote working on the holidays. But he only stays long enough to get his picture taken and then drives back home to be with his family. True!
Overall management is rude and detached from the pilot group.
Our pilots are the frontline managers who are getting flights out ontime day to day. They are so professional to continue this, yet management keeps dumping on them.
Who is our chief pilot?
When was the last time he held a pilot meeting?
Does he keep line currency?
From what I heard, Phil Trenary was an awesome CEO back in the late 90's. Now that he's had his hand in the company cookie jar bank account and taken millions, he's become spoiled. He's become so spoiled he is now lazy. He is an amazing magician who pretends to work hard and charms people with his smile and ability to read somebody's name tag as if he remembered it on his own merit. But what has he done? Not much, just takes stock options, bonuses and a large salary.
Pinnacle Pilots don't want to make more than industry average. But we do want to get treated like humans. Which means, adequate sleep, and reasonable duty days and in general following the golden rule.
Papa Mike: You must not be a regular line pilot who is current. If you walked a mile in our mocassins today, you would totally understand why our morale is totally beat down.
12-06-2010, 06:18 AM
#928
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
Umm... yes. Complaining. I don't know what else one could possibly call it. So many on here were (insert your better choice of words here) about how a 45 day and additional 3 day timeline was never going to work. Of course we all had some optimism, some more than others, but it was pretty obvious from the start that it wouldn't work. I wasn't bummed out by not getting it done in such a short time frame considering the scope of what was actually trying to be done. Bringing 3 separate companies together is an enormus task and a completely different thing than what pinnacle was going through on their own. I also understand the views that many have expressed as to how the company shouldn't have put the nov 15 deadline if it really wasn't possible but there was a lot of progress made in just a couple months considering what was at stake and had they origionally said february for a deadline, it would have been a much different story.
p.s. Before someone takes this as a union bash, it is not. From our email, there are a lot of things left open. Higney, please help me out, how can people say lots of progess is being made but almost everything is still left open? Is this simply because they are not TA'd? Have they even been discussed?
12-06-2010, 06:20 AM
#929
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2010
Posts: 687
Funny how when someone you know is an ALPA guy says what I said they don't get the "you must be in management" garbage. I am far from management. I'm also far from an ALPA guy. I just understand what is going on and don't have unrealistic expectations. If United and Continental announced a deadline for a 45 days for a contract everyone would scoff that its simply not possible. They understand that it will take time to do it right and get it right. Yet they are just two parties we are 3! My aviation history is somewhat weak, but has this ever even been done before?
12-06-2010, 06:21 AM
#930
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Posts: 519
Originally Posted by PapaMike
...but there was a lot of progress made in just a couple months...
And the sad thing is the 9E guys have been hearing about is for the past 6 years. 6 years of "progress", and still nothing to show for it.
Make sure you sign up for automatic dues checkoff...we don't want that coming in late!
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