ATP Law Petition
03-01-2012, 08:31 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2012
Position: Right side 76
Posts: 100
Originally Posted by Salukipilot4590
Full disclosure here: I was hired into a Brazilian jet at 705TT/97ME
My college plan (circa 2003) was to get in, get trained, drink, flight instruct in good ole IL and graduate in 2007. After graduation head back to the Left coast and CFI for a couple years then head over to SKW whenever they started hiring.
Well lookee what happened....the hiring boom of 2006-08... I had the opportunity to go to a crappy regional asap or go home and CFI more (had been CFIing for two years at the time). Impatient me jumped at the chance to ski on the water.....in retrospect I should have gone home and enjoyed the In-N-Out and sun.
Two furloughs later and here my black ass sits....in LA....CFI-ing (well the first furlough...not the second.....so far....) waiting for SKW to tell me I'm good enough.
Moral of the story...do it right the first time kid.
For-Shizzle.
My college plan (circa 2003) was to get in, get trained, drink, flight instruct in good ole IL and graduate in 2007. After graduation head back to the Left coast and CFI for a couple years then head over to SKW whenever they started hiring.
Well lookee what happened....the hiring boom of 2006-08... I had the opportunity to go to a crappy regional asap or go home and CFI more (had been CFIing for two years at the time). Impatient me jumped at the chance to ski on the water.....in retrospect I should have gone home and enjoyed the In-N-Out and sun.
Two furloughs later and here my black ass sits....in LA....CFI-ing (well the first furlough...not the second.....so far....) waiting for SKW to tell me I'm good enough.
Moral of the story...do it right the first time kid.
For-Shizzle.
I'm in the same boat as the other CFI's out there working to build my time only to see the regionals raise their min's when I'm just 50 hours short! Damn the luck! But I do agree that this law is a good thing, and there are places to go teach where the time will come fast (at least thats what I'm hoping)
I fully admit to having SJS, even after having 7000 hours in 727's, A300's and C-5's as an engineer. I'm willing to bide my time and work my way in like everyone else did, just don't make fun of my grey when I get there, it started showing when I was 24!
03-01-2012, 08:50 PM
#32
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2010
Posts: 3
Originally Posted by Salukipilot4590
Full disclosure here: I was hired into a Brazilian jet at 705TT/97ME
My college plan (circa 2003) was to get in, get trained, drink, flight instruct in good ole IL and graduate in 2007. After graduation head back to the Left coast and CFI for a couple years then head over to SKW whenever they started hiring.
Well lookee what happened....the hiring boom of 2006-08... I had the opportunity to go to a crappy regional asap or go home and CFI more (had been CFIing for two years at the time). Impatient me jumped at the chance to ski on the water.....in retrospect I should have gone home and enjoyed the In-N-Out and sun.
Two furloughs later and here my black ass sits....in LA....CFI-ing (well the first furlough...not the second.....so far....) waiting for SKW to tell me I'm good enough.
Moral of the story...do it right the first time kid.
For-Shizzle.
My college plan (circa 2003) was to get in, get trained, drink, flight instruct in good ole IL and graduate in 2007. After graduation head back to the Left coast and CFI for a couple years then head over to SKW whenever they started hiring.
Well lookee what happened....the hiring boom of 2006-08... I had the opportunity to go to a crappy regional asap or go home and CFI more (had been CFIing for two years at the time). Impatient me jumped at the chance to ski on the water.....in retrospect I should have gone home and enjoyed the In-N-Out and sun.
Two furloughs later and here my black ass sits....in LA....CFI-ing (well the first furlough...not the second.....so far....) waiting for SKW to tell me I'm good enough.
Moral of the story...do it right the first time kid.
For-Shizzle.
All in all the ATP rule is a great filter.
03-01-2012, 08:50 PM
#33
veut gagner à la loterie
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: Light Chop
Posts: 23,286
Originally Posted by lolwut
I know what you mean regarding all the pilots having 1500 hours. Today it doesn't really make too much difference. But I think with this bill, the 1500 hours really does.
It creates a filter that weeds out those who don't really have the skill and natural ability to be an airline pilot... but are able to buy their way through enough CRJ transition courses to get into an RJ... or tough it out long enough and squeak by that 250 hour mark and get to an airline.
It takes an entirely different kind of person to be able to accumulate 1500 hours. It means that they've successfully instructed, flown commercially in some other manner, and plain worked hard and been successful at what they've attempted. A lot of people who got hired at 250 hours but are on the weaker end of the spectrum, even though they may have thousands now, probably wouldn't have been able to pull off getting to 1500 hours on their own. They would've been weeded out in the process and never ended up in that RJ cockpit. The 1500 hour pilots in the future will probably, overall, be of much higher caliber than the 1500 hour pilots we have flying RJs today.
It creates a filter that weeds out those who don't really have the skill and natural ability to be an airline pilot... but are able to buy their way through enough CRJ transition courses to get into an RJ... or tough it out long enough and squeak by that 250 hour mark and get to an airline.
It takes an entirely different kind of person to be able to accumulate 1500 hours. It means that they've successfully instructed, flown commercially in some other manner, and plain worked hard and been successful at what they've attempted. A lot of people who got hired at 250 hours but are on the weaker end of the spectrum, even though they may have thousands now, probably wouldn't have been able to pull off getting to 1500 hours on their own. They would've been weeded out in the process and never ended up in that RJ cockpit. The 1500 hour pilots in the future will probably, overall, be of much higher caliber than the 1500 hour pilots we have flying RJs today.
03-01-2012, 09:09 PM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: the correct seat
Posts: 1,422
Originally Posted by flyboyandrew
Speaking for someone who has spent a great deal of money getting to where I am, to be held back by a new law put into place, I would like to do what I can to create a possibility.
03-01-2012, 11:56 PM
#35
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Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: http://rahcontractnow.org/
Posts: 206
Originally Posted by flyboyandrew
I have been in contact recently with several congressmen, who I have discussed with the new "ATP Law" going into affect. I was advised to create a petition to hand into the FAA requesting amendments to the proposed NPRM for the law.
AP
AP
03-02-2012, 02:40 AM
#36
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 38
This isn't always a good thing. I spent a few days in a hospital with my son, rarely found an American doctor or nurse that understood or could communicate clearly what the issue was. I fear the day when you have to go overseas to find pilots who meet a logbook requirement. That said, 1500 isn't hard to meet anymore.
So put the hour minimums wherever they want, still wouldn't have prevented 3407, they both exceeded 1500 hours. As far as I can tell, 100% of the Part 121 crashes have been with pilots with 1500+ hours and an ATP acting as the PIC. Given the ATP can be done rather quickly in a PA44 for not much money, the requirement for an ATP is a big eh to me.
Until we clean up training and standardize it like it should be nothing is truly getting fixed. 1500 hour minimum? Go for it, don't care, won't feel any safer just because the FO had 1500 hours when they were hired and given the current shape of the pilot market and the current trend to park 50 seaters (albeit to grow larger but yet scope limited fleets) I don't think it's going to make much of a difference.
----
As to this petition, NO. I wouldn't want a pilot who didn't want to be a CFI. That's a red flag to me.
So put the hour minimums wherever they want, still wouldn't have prevented 3407, they both exceeded 1500 hours. As far as I can tell, 100% of the Part 121 crashes have been with pilots with 1500+ hours and an ATP acting as the PIC. Given the ATP can be done rather quickly in a PA44 for not much money, the requirement for an ATP is a big eh to me.
Until we clean up training and standardize it like it should be nothing is truly getting fixed. 1500 hour minimum? Go for it, don't care, won't feel any safer just because the FO had 1500 hours when they were hired and given the current shape of the pilot market and the current trend to park 50 seaters (albeit to grow larger but yet scope limited fleets) I don't think it's going to make much of a difference.
----
As to this petition, NO. I wouldn't want a pilot who didn't want to be a CFI. That's a red flag to me.
I agree with the 1500 hour minimum but I don't think it is absolute solution. I'm a CFI at a pilot mill training foreign students that go from zero to hero within a year and are off to fly metal bigger than RJs. What does it mean to pay dues anyway? You certainly don't owe anyone but yourself when it comes to getting the experience needed for a job. If you don't have a lot time just do whatever you can, get out there and get your hours and experience.
I believe the law is going to slow things down at small part 61 flight schools and there are going to be tons of CFIs in the market looking for a job. There wouldn't be enough students for all of them. I worked at a school last year that had 8 instructors and we were lucky if we flew 3hrs in a week. The cost of training is high, financing is not available and on top of that is the new 1500 hour requirement. Soon we'll probably have more foreign students training in the U.S. than local students.
03-02-2012, 04:37 AM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Position: Retired
Posts: 651
Originally Posted by flyboyandrew
Speaking for someone who has spent a great deal of money getting to where I am, to be held back by a new law put into place, I would like to do what I can to create a possibility.
And to the thread in general -- 50 people would probably be alive today, and flight 3407 would have simply landed in BUF, if Renslow had built some time towing or instructing instead of taking the path that he took early in his career. There is a lot to be learned in those basic time building jobs.
03-02-2012, 04:51 AM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 478
Originally Posted by flyboyandrew
Speaking for someone who has spent a great deal of money getting to where I am, to be held back by a new law put into place, I would like to do what I can to create a possibility.
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