KMGM accident 12/31
01-02-2023, 07:37 PM
#61
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,454
Originally Posted by AerChungus
I wouldn't say it's disingenuous to say a ramper wouldn't know that the beacon was associated with the engines running after 5 days. I say that because I was one of those rampers. I showed up because somebody told me that if I could pass a drug test, I could get free flights if I threw bags a few hours a week. I was told to sit in front of a computer for 8 hours and click through LMS courses until I finished them. We didn't have training. I didn't know what a beacon was. To reiterate, as a pilot, it's obvious to me now. But as a ramper, how was a ramper supposed to know if nobody trained them?
I hope someone sues the sh(t out of them. They deserve it.
01-02-2023, 08:13 PM
#62
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,002
Again, ramp personnel SHOULD NOT be allowed on a ramp with anything more than paper airplanes if they do not know the meaning of a beacon. Period. Full stop. End of story.
There is NO excuse, no rationale, no explanation, no story, no fabel, no myth, no anecdote, no valid reason for putting someone on the operational side of a flight line who does not know the most basic and fundamental elements of safety around the aircraft on that flight line. None.
Anyone who does otherwise should be held criminally liable, and most certainly civilly liable for that death and any resulting injuries, or potential injuries or deaths.
When someone gets sucked through a turbine engine, the reasons really don't matter any more. The excuses pale. The anecdotes dry up and blow away, because they don't bring anybody back and they don't prevent another mishap from occurring.
Again, this isn't a little local tribal knowledge, and it's not a new thing. it's 70+ years old, and it's global. Worldwide.
This incident is one hundred percent preventable, and it's not simply one weak link. It can't be fixed retroactively, but it does not need to happen EVER AGAIN.
There is NO excuse, no rationale, no explanation, no story, no fabel, no myth, no anecdote, no valid reason for putting someone on the operational side of a flight line who does not know the most basic and fundamental elements of safety around the aircraft on that flight line. None.
Anyone who does otherwise should be held criminally liable, and most certainly civilly liable for that death and any resulting injuries, or potential injuries or deaths.
When someone gets sucked through a turbine engine, the reasons really don't matter any more. The excuses pale. The anecdotes dry up and blow away, because they don't bring anybody back and they don't prevent another mishap from occurring.
Again, this isn't a little local tribal knowledge, and it's not a new thing. it's 70+ years old, and it's global. Worldwide.
This incident is one hundred percent preventable, and it's not simply one weak link. It can't be fixed retroactively, but it does not need to happen EVER AGAIN.
01-02-2023, 08:15 PM
#63
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by dera
Pretty much instantly. The pressure ratio drops to zero almost immediately, that's the woosh-sound you hear when a turbofan engine is shut down.
If a person's torso is approx 1'x3', that's 432 square inches... a one psi diff pressure will apply 432 lbs of force.
The N2 spool doesn't move much air volume in a high-bypass turbofan.
01-03-2023, 07:01 AM
#64
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,454
Just as an anecdote on how poorly these rampers are trained. A ramper once asked me, underneath the tailcone, if the APU was running.
I said the fact that you can talk to me in a normal voice means it's not.
They have no clue. But it's not their fault, it's the lack of training. And thats 100% on management.
Again - this accident could have been prevented, management just decided it's worth the occasional accident/ loss of human life to save millions annually on ramp costs.
I also feel for the flight crew. This is up there on things you don't want to experience during your career.
Where's Lee Iacocca when you need him.
I said the fact that you can talk to me in a normal voice means it's not.
They have no clue. But it's not their fault, it's the lack of training. And thats 100% on management.
Again - this accident could have been prevented, management just decided it's worth the occasional accident/ loss of human life to save millions annually on ramp costs.
I also feel for the flight crew. This is up there on things you don't want to experience during your career.
Where's Lee Iacocca when you need him.
01-03-2023, 11:44 AM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2017
Position: CRJ9 CA
Posts: 4,083
Originally Posted by dera
Just as an anecdote on how poorly these rampers are trained. A ramper once asked me, underneath the tailcone, if the APU was running.
I said the fact that you can talk to me in a normal voice means it's not.
They have no clue. But it's not their fault, it's the lack of training. And thats 100% on management.
Again - this accident could have been prevented, management just decided it's worth the occasional accident/ loss of human life to save millions annually on ramp costs.
I also feel for the flight crew. This is up there on things you don't want to experience during your career.
Where's Lee Iacocca when you need him.
I said the fact that you can talk to me in a normal voice means it's not.
They have no clue. But it's not their fault, it's the lack of training. And thats 100% on management.
Again - this accident could have been prevented, management just decided it's worth the occasional accident/ loss of human life to save millions annually on ramp costs.
I also feel for the flight crew. This is up there on things you don't want to experience during your career.
Where's Lee Iacocca when you need him.
01-05-2023, 12:46 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2017
Position: single-pilot multi turbine captain
Posts: 240
Mother of three. Fundraising link:
https://www.gofundme.com/f/courtney-edwards?utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_content=undefined&utm_medium=copy_link_a ll&utm_source=customer&utm_term=undefined&link_id= 18&can_id=f215e37ed210da8ff9e126dbefcf71f9&email_r eferrer=email_1779321&email_subject=cwa-airline-agents-tragic-death-on-the-job-and-other-news
https://www.gofundme.com/f/courtney-edwards?utm_campaign=p_cp+share-sheet&utm_content=undefined&utm_medium=copy_link_a ll&utm_source=customer&utm_term=undefined&link_id= 18&can_id=f215e37ed210da8ff9e126dbefcf71f9&email_r eferrer=email_1779321&email_subject=cwa-airline-agents-tragic-death-on-the-job-and-other-news
01-05-2023, 03:10 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2022
Posts: 257
Been thinking about this tragedy for a while and what to say. There is no doubt in my mind that Piedmont and to a larger extent, AA, have blood on their hands. This is the result of poor training, lack of oversight, and **** poor pay and working conditions. All the tough talk about D:0 or whatever the fancy metric they're focused on this month promotes a rushed environment prone to errors. The terrible pay results in high turnover and a management team that's largely inexperienced with little mentoring ability. Doesn't help that all the airlines used that sweet bailout money to throw early retirement at the old timers who have been around the block and see what happens when sh*t hits the fan. This is a major advantage that young pilots have when coming up. But again, you need to pay a lot to the older guys to stick around. If you pay $12/hr. to someone to work outside in all weather conditions, you shouldn’t expect them to care much about the operation.
I have been to this station many times, along with many others in AA's regional system, and to be honest, it is a miracle this doesn't happen more often. You always felt that "pressure" in the air to keep the plane moving, keep the bags loading, get the new crew on, etc. For those who did this type of flying, you know what I’m talking about. And all stations are the same, just with different faces.
I don't only blame that ground handling side either. The CPO's at the AA regionals have blood on their hands too. All those emails to captains asking why this such flight was 2 minutes late closing the door further promotes the rushing culture to the one person who has the ability to stop everything when things aren't right. Making captains have this worry in back of their head is, in my view, a disgrace. But just another example of **** poor mentoring and ability to lead from above. Same with Middle Management in other departments that all get their marching orders from above and push it down to station management.
I have seen what a toxic person or attitude can do to a smaller business. It is a cancer that you cannot let spread. When it is at a faceless corporation like AA/Piedmont where ALL higher ups push it downward, the spread is unstoppable, and it leads to a tragedy like this. In my experience, hiring and retaining solid talent to work is very hard. Talk is cheap. If you treat your people like family and treat them like a PROFFESIONAL, you will get a higher caliber individual who takes pride in their work and look out for each other like brothers. You'll retain management who want to mentor young workers and to make sure something like this would never happen, but a global airline just does not operate the same way because of greed.
I am sure the investigators will do their job and get a better idea of what happened. Just a terrible tragedy that was 100% preventable.
I have been to this station many times, along with many others in AA's regional system, and to be honest, it is a miracle this doesn't happen more often. You always felt that "pressure" in the air to keep the plane moving, keep the bags loading, get the new crew on, etc. For those who did this type of flying, you know what I’m talking about. And all stations are the same, just with different faces.
I don't only blame that ground handling side either. The CPO's at the AA regionals have blood on their hands too. All those emails to captains asking why this such flight was 2 minutes late closing the door further promotes the rushing culture to the one person who has the ability to stop everything when things aren't right. Making captains have this worry in back of their head is, in my view, a disgrace. But just another example of **** poor mentoring and ability to lead from above. Same with Middle Management in other departments that all get their marching orders from above and push it down to station management.
I have seen what a toxic person or attitude can do to a smaller business. It is a cancer that you cannot let spread. When it is at a faceless corporation like AA/Piedmont where ALL higher ups push it downward, the spread is unstoppable, and it leads to a tragedy like this. In my experience, hiring and retaining solid talent to work is very hard. Talk is cheap. If you treat your people like family and treat them like a PROFFESIONAL, you will get a higher caliber individual who takes pride in their work and look out for each other like brothers. You'll retain management who want to mentor young workers and to make sure something like this would never happen, but a global airline just does not operate the same way because of greed.
I am sure the investigators will do their job and get a better idea of what happened. Just a terrible tragedy that was 100% preventable.
Last edited by PipeMan; 01-05-2023 at 03:40 PM.
01-05-2023, 04:32 PM
#68
Prime Minister/Moderator
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: Engines Turn Or People Swim
Posts: 39,211
Originally Posted by Continuingappch
01-05-2023, 07:21 PM
#69
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,454
Originally Posted by PipeMan
Been thinking about this tragedy for a while and what to say. There is no doubt in my mind that Piedmont and to a larger extent, AA, have blood on their hands. This is the result of poor training, lack of oversight, and **** poor pay and working conditions. All the tough talk about D:0 or whatever the fancy metric they're focused on this month promotes a rushed environment prone to errors. The terrible pay results in high turnover and a management team that's largely inexperienced with little mentoring ability. Doesn't help that all the airlines used that sweet bailout money to throw early retirement at the old timers who have been around the block and see what happens when sh*t hits the fan. This is a major advantage that young pilots have when coming up. But again, you need to pay a lot to the older guys to stick around. If you pay $12/hr. to someone to work outside in all weather conditions, you shouldn’t expect them to care much about the operation.
I am sure the investigators will do their job and get a better idea of what happened. Just a terrible tragedy that was 100% preventable.
I am sure the investigators will do their job and get a better idea of what happened. Just a terrible tragedy that was 100% preventable.
As someone who has processed these reports, read and filed the ASAPs, and argued with CPO about all this, this is so incredibly frustrating.
My exact words a few years ago at CPO, "does someone have to die" and CPO responded "oh who cares". Not even kidding. All about the T0 time, who cares about anything else.
I hope someone sues the sh*t out of them.
01-06-2023, 07:50 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2019
Posts: 413
Originally Posted by PipeMan
Been thinking about this tragedy for a while and what to say. There is no doubt in my mind that Piedmont and to a larger extent, AA, have blood on their hands. This is the result of poor training, lack of oversight, and **** poor pay and working conditions. All the tough talk about D:0 or whatever the fancy metric they're focused on this month promotes a rushed environment prone to errors. The terrible pay results in high turnover and a management team that's largely inexperienced with little mentoring ability. Doesn't help that all the airlines used that sweet bailout money to throw early retirement at the old timers who have been around the block and see what happens when sh*t hits the fan. This is a major advantage that young pilots have when coming up. But again, you need to pay a lot to the older guys to stick around. If you pay $12/hr. to someone to work outside in all weather conditions, you shouldn’t expect them to care much about the operation.
I have been to this station many times, along with many others in AA's regional system, and to be honest, it is a miracle this doesn't happen more often. You always felt that "pressure" in the air to keep the plane moving, keep the bags loading, get the new crew on, etc. For those who did this type of flying, you know what I’m talking about. And all stations are the same, just with different faces.
I don't only blame that ground handling side either. The CPO's at the AA regionals have blood on their hands too. All those emails to captains asking why this such flight was 2 minutes late closing the door further promotes the rushing culture to the one person who has the ability to stop everything when things aren't right. Making captains have this worry in back of their head is, in my view, a disgrace. But just another example of **** poor mentoring and ability to lead from above. Same with Middle Management in other departments that all get their marching orders from above and push it down to station management.
I have seen what a toxic person or attitude can do to a smaller business. It is a cancer that you cannot let spread. When it is at a faceless corporation like AA/Piedmont where ALL higher ups push it downward, the spread is unstoppable, and it leads to a tragedy like this. In my experience, hiring and retaining solid talent to work is very hard. Talk is cheap. If you treat your people like family and treat them like a PROFFESIONAL, you will get a higher caliber individual who takes pride in their work and look out for each other like brothers. You'll retain management who want to mentor young workers and to make sure something like this would never happen, but a global airline just does not operate the same way because of greed.
I am sure the investigators will do their job and get a better idea of what happened. Just a terrible tragedy that was 100% preventable.
I have been to this station many times, along with many others in AA's regional system, and to be honest, it is a miracle this doesn't happen more often. You always felt that "pressure" in the air to keep the plane moving, keep the bags loading, get the new crew on, etc. For those who did this type of flying, you know what I’m talking about. And all stations are the same, just with different faces.
I don't only blame that ground handling side either. The CPO's at the AA regionals have blood on their hands too. All those emails to captains asking why this such flight was 2 minutes late closing the door further promotes the rushing culture to the one person who has the ability to stop everything when things aren't right. Making captains have this worry in back of their head is, in my view, a disgrace. But just another example of **** poor mentoring and ability to lead from above. Same with Middle Management in other departments that all get their marching orders from above and push it down to station management.
I have seen what a toxic person or attitude can do to a smaller business. It is a cancer that you cannot let spread. When it is at a faceless corporation like AA/Piedmont where ALL higher ups push it downward, the spread is unstoppable, and it leads to a tragedy like this. In my experience, hiring and retaining solid talent to work is very hard. Talk is cheap. If you treat your people like family and treat them like a PROFFESIONAL, you will get a higher caliber individual who takes pride in their work and look out for each other like brothers. You'll retain management who want to mentor young workers and to make sure something like this would never happen, but a global airline just does not operate the same way because of greed.
I am sure the investigators will do their job and get a better idea of what happened. Just a terrible tragedy that was 100% preventable.
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