KMGM accident 12/31
01-01-2023, 08:16 PM
#51
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,454
Originally Posted by Fletcheroes
Heard of a recent Huffer hose ingestion/partial ingestion....I heard the aircraft was dispatched and the flight deck was not informed.
Training is not bad....it's the lack of oversight ....people just watching their phones and hitting the enter button and guessing on the questions which are regularly dumbed down so people can pass. But when you pay people 10.00 /hr, sups at 13.50...you kinda get what ya pay for
Training is not bad....it's the lack of oversight ....people just watching their phones and hitting the enter button and guessing on the questions which are regularly dumbed down so people can pass. But when you pay people 10.00 /hr, sups at 13.50...you kinda get what ya pay for
AA WO ramp operations are atrocious, this accident could have happened at any time, at any station. But it is the fault of management, not the guys doing the work who are underpaid, underappreciated and undertrained. In this case, they will just fire the crew chief but nothing will be fixed. I filed 2 ASAPs for ramp behavior that was suicidal, and the amount of reports and phone calls I had, I long ago lost track of them. CPO answer always was that there's nothing they can do.
Maybe they start caring now that someone died.
01-02-2023, 04:09 AM
#52
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2018
Position: Sitting
Posts: 498
Originally Posted by dera
People rather hide their mistakes than report them because there is no just culture, you'll just get fired. AA WO ramp operations are atrocious, this accident could have happened at any time, at any station. But it is the fault of management, not the guys doing the work who are underpaid, underappreciated and undertrained. In this case, they will just fire the crew chief but nothing will be fixed. I filed 2 ASAPs for ramp behavior that was suicidal, and the amount of reports and phone calls I had, I long ago lost track of them. CPO answer always was that there's nothing they can do.Maybe they start caring now that someone died.
01-02-2023, 06:55 AM
#53
Gets Everyday Off
Joined APC: Aug 2016
Position: Relaxed
Posts: 6,929
Originally Posted by drywhitetoast
Isn't that the case though with most rules and regulations in DOT industry? Something about all the FAR's written in blood? Or enough people have to die for a 4 way stop to become a red light intersection. Very sad.
01-02-2023, 07:11 AM
#54
Disinterested Third Party
Joined APC: Jun 2012
Posts: 6,002
Most parts of the globe, ground personnel won't approach the aircraft if the beacon is on. Pretty much anywhere on the planet, in any type of aircraft, including most third and fourth world smoke holes.
It's disingenuous to suggest a ramper with only five days might not know better. The use of the beacon to warn of aircraft operation has been in effect since the advent of turbine engines. This is not a new concept. Fast hands kill; rushing to do anything in aviation is usually a bad choice, with a potential fatal outcome; this case no different. The first thing anyone on the ramp should be taught, from hour .01 of their new career, is basic ramp safety.
That said, I've had personnel walk past engines while running, taxi behind me when powering up, simply walk away when being marshalled into a gate, frequently looking the other way and not at me during an arrival to the gate, and I've had to sit with an engine running for an hour (+) before ground power showed up when no APU was available. I've had ground crew disconnect external power before I decoupled it, resulting in a large arc and bang when they pulled the plug.
A friend, who flew hercs at the time, had a station manager who made a habit of opening the crew entrance door before the aircraft was shut down, and after multiple warnings, one day the crew left half an inch or so of pressure, and the door flattened him when he opened...never made that mistake again. I've seen ramp personnel start fueling, tie off the deadman switch, and walk away. Start loading aircraft without crew coordination resulting in nearly dropping the airplane on its tail. Pull chocks without authorization. Open doors with engines running.
The potential is always for unfortunate, but predictable results. This case, no different.
The excuse or reason for ignoring the beacon really doesn't matter, because the result is the same. It doesn't matter if someone was trying to get baggage quickly, or didn't know the APU was inoperative, or thought the left vs. right engine was shut down, or was trying to look good for the boss; the result is the same here, and the commonality to all is the beacon. It's there for a reason. As noted above, the possibility that the beacon was inoperative or turned off exists. Not every location jacks in and greets the crew on the intercom, and it's possible the ICS was broken, etc. Perhaps local tribal convention is to listen for the engines and then rush in, but if that's a practice despite the beacon, it's a damn foolish one. There are a lot of parts of the world where I did't get the beacon right away and everybody stood back and refused to approach, until that beacon went off...it's a worldwide convention.. Certainly there are stations that don't answer the radio, don't communicate, and even with an in-range call, still seem to be completely unaware a flight is coming, start running when "surprised" by the arrival. We've all seen it. I once had some dingbat wearing a hard-hat with a big flashing beacon on top at a government facility meet me at the ramp entrance, then run backward in a skip (try to do that, just try), while waving wants, for three quarters of a mile, until we arrived at the parking spot...with big radials turning everywhere. Once had a guy try to walk through the prop from the rear, between the fuselage and propeller of a large radial, to inform me about my aircraft type...and he had the wrong type. Nearly got him. All kinds of stupid pet tricks...but the bottom line is we have a beacon; the practice has been in use for a very long time now, and it's universal. There is literally no excuse for not waiting until the airplane is shut down,, regardless of pressure to turn airplanes, local tradition, etc. Bad habits kill.
It's disingenuous to suggest a ramper with only five days might not know better. The use of the beacon to warn of aircraft operation has been in effect since the advent of turbine engines. This is not a new concept. Fast hands kill; rushing to do anything in aviation is usually a bad choice, with a potential fatal outcome; this case no different. The first thing anyone on the ramp should be taught, from hour .01 of their new career, is basic ramp safety.
That said, I've had personnel walk past engines while running, taxi behind me when powering up, simply walk away when being marshalled into a gate, frequently looking the other way and not at me during an arrival to the gate, and I've had to sit with an engine running for an hour (+) before ground power showed up when no APU was available. I've had ground crew disconnect external power before I decoupled it, resulting in a large arc and bang when they pulled the plug.
A friend, who flew hercs at the time, had a station manager who made a habit of opening the crew entrance door before the aircraft was shut down, and after multiple warnings, one day the crew left half an inch or so of pressure, and the door flattened him when he opened...never made that mistake again. I've seen ramp personnel start fueling, tie off the deadman switch, and walk away. Start loading aircraft without crew coordination resulting in nearly dropping the airplane on its tail. Pull chocks without authorization. Open doors with engines running.
The potential is always for unfortunate, but predictable results. This case, no different.
The excuse or reason for ignoring the beacon really doesn't matter, because the result is the same. It doesn't matter if someone was trying to get baggage quickly, or didn't know the APU was inoperative, or thought the left vs. right engine was shut down, or was trying to look good for the boss; the result is the same here, and the commonality to all is the beacon. It's there for a reason. As noted above, the possibility that the beacon was inoperative or turned off exists. Not every location jacks in and greets the crew on the intercom, and it's possible the ICS was broken, etc. Perhaps local tribal convention is to listen for the engines and then rush in, but if that's a practice despite the beacon, it's a damn foolish one. There are a lot of parts of the world where I did't get the beacon right away and everybody stood back and refused to approach, until that beacon went off...it's a worldwide convention.. Certainly there are stations that don't answer the radio, don't communicate, and even with an in-range call, still seem to be completely unaware a flight is coming, start running when "surprised" by the arrival. We've all seen it. I once had some dingbat wearing a hard-hat with a big flashing beacon on top at a government facility meet me at the ramp entrance, then run backward in a skip (try to do that, just try), while waving wants, for three quarters of a mile, until we arrived at the parking spot...with big radials turning everywhere. Once had a guy try to walk through the prop from the rear, between the fuselage and propeller of a large radial, to inform me about my aircraft type...and he had the wrong type. Nearly got him. All kinds of stupid pet tricks...but the bottom line is we have a beacon; the practice has been in use for a very long time now, and it's universal. There is literally no excuse for not waiting until the airplane is shut down,, regardless of pressure to turn airplanes, local tradition, etc. Bad habits kill.
01-02-2023, 07:12 AM
#55
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,454
Originally Posted by drywhitetoast
Isn't that the case though with most rules and regulations in DOT industry? Something about all the FAR's written in blood? Or enough people have to die for a 4 way stop to become a red light intersection. Very sad.
This accident was entirely preventable, they just refused to do something about it.
01-02-2023, 07:21 AM
#56
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2017
Posts: 3,588
Originally Posted by CrandallCrawler
Right after cutoff you’ll be fine, just don’t walk in front of it pre cutoff for obvious reasons
Originally Posted by dera
Pretty much instantly. The pressure ratio drops to zero almost immediately, that's the woosh-sound you hear when a turbofan engine is shut down.
01-02-2023, 07:26 AM
#57
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 17
We had jet bridge canopy arm tear the MCD seal....agent new it....FA new it.....dispatched.....could not pressurize.....returned to airport to be ferried out at low altitude 2 days later.
Last two years 4 aircraft dispatched after deice, with significant contamination
Etc etc....nobody lost their jobs for any of that.....but get caught leaving on the clock.....you can resign
I reported it all....to management, to corporate, to the carrier, to the FAA
Squat done because they we're given heads up and would fabricate records
It's disgusting.....as pilots....if you have an issue find the sup and or station manager and chew them outThem run thru the channels...let's make the world a safer place to work
Last two years 4 aircraft dispatched after deice, with significant contamination
Etc etc....nobody lost their jobs for any of that.....but get caught leaving on the clock.....you can resign
I reported it all....to management, to corporate, to the carrier, to the FAA
Squat done because they we're given heads up and would fabricate records
It's disgusting.....as pilots....if you have an issue find the sup and or station manager and chew them outThem run thru the channels...let's make the world a safer place to work
01-02-2023, 07:30 AM
#58
In a land of unicorns
Joined APC: Apr 2014
Position: Whale FO
Posts: 6,454
Originally Posted by Fletcheroes
We had jet bridge canopy arm tear the MCD seal....agent new it....FA new it.....dispatched.....could not pressurize.....returned to airport to be ferried out at low altitude 2 days later.
Last two years 4 aircraft dispatched after deice, with significant contamination
Etc etc....nobody lost their jobs for any of that.....but get caught leaving on the clock.....you can resign
I reported it all....to management, to corporate, to the carrier, to the FAA
Squat done because they we're given heads up and would fabricate records
It's disgusting.....as pilots....if you have an issue find the sup and or station manager and chew them outThem run thru the channels...let's make the world a safer place to work
Last two years 4 aircraft dispatched after deice, with significant contamination
Etc etc....nobody lost their jobs for any of that.....but get caught leaving on the clock.....you can resign
I reported it all....to management, to corporate, to the carrier, to the FAA
Squat done because they we're given heads up and would fabricate records
It's disgusting.....as pilots....if you have an issue find the sup and or station manager and chew them outThem run thru the channels...let's make the world a safer place to work
01-02-2023, 10:54 AM
#59
On Reserve
Joined APC: Feb 2016
Posts: 17
Originally Posted by dera
Envoy started an investigation against a pilot who reported something not legit. Any safety hazard reported also exposes yourself to scrutiny. So people just don't do them. Again, lack of just culture.
Wow......and that why people die
01-02-2023, 04:56 PM
#60
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2021
Posts: 230
Originally Posted by JohnBurke
Most parts of the globe, ground personnel won't approach the aircraft if the beacon is on. Pretty much anywhere on the planet, in any type of aircraft, including most third and fourth world smoke holes.
It's disingenuous to suggest a ramper with only five days might not know better. The use of the beacon to warn of aircraft operation has been in effect since the advent of turbine engines. This is not a new concept. Fast hands kill; rushing to do anything in aviation is usually a bad choice, with a potential fatal outcome; this case no different. The first thing anyone on the ramp should be taught, from hour .01 of their new career, is basic ramp safety.
That said, I've had personnel walk past engines while running, taxi behind me when powering up, simply walk away when being marshalled into a gate, frequently looking the other way and not at me during an arrival to the gate, and I've had to sit with an engine running for an hour (+) before ground power showed up when no APU was available. I've had ground crew disconnect external power before I decoupled it, resulting in a large arc and bang when they pulled the plug.
A friend, who flew hercs at the time, had a station manager who made a habit of opening the crew entrance door before the aircraft was shut down, and after multiple warnings, one day the crew left half an inch or so of pressure, and the door flattened him when he opened...never made that mistake again. I've seen ramp personnel start fueling, tie off the deadman switch, and walk away. Start loading aircraft without crew coordination resulting in nearly dropping the airplane on its tail. Pull chocks without authorization. Open doors with engines running.
The potential is always for unfortunate, but predictable results. This case, no different.
The excuse or reason for ignoring the beacon really doesn't matter, because the result is the same. It doesn't matter if someone was trying to get baggage quickly, or didn't know the APU was inoperative, or thought the left vs. right engine was shut down, or was trying to look good for the boss; the result is the same here, and the commonality to all is the beacon. It's there for a reason. As noted above, the possibility that the beacon was inoperative or turned off exists. Not every location jacks in and greets the crew on the intercom, and it's possible the ICS was broken, etc. Perhaps local tribal convention is to listen for the engines and then rush in, but if that's a practice despite the beacon, it's a damn foolish one. There are a lot of parts of the world where I did't get the beacon right away and everybody stood back and refused to approach, until that beacon went off...it's a worldwide convention.. Certainly there are stations that don't answer the radio, don't communicate, and even with an in-range call, still seem to be completely unaware a flight is coming, start running when "surprised" by the arrival. We've all seen it. I once had some dingbat wearing a hard-hat with a big flashing beacon on top at a government facility meet me at the ramp entrance, then run backward in a skip (try to do that, just try), while waving wants, for three quarters of a mile, until we arrived at the parking spot...with big radials turning everywhere. Once had a guy try to walk through the prop from the rear, between the fuselage and propeller of a large radial, to inform me about my aircraft type...and he had the wrong type. Nearly got him. All kinds of stupid pet tricks...but the bottom line is we have a beacon; the practice has been in use for a very long time now, and it's universal. There is literally no excuse for not waiting until the airplane is shut down,, regardless of pressure to turn airplanes, local tradition, etc. Bad habits kill.
It's disingenuous to suggest a ramper with only five days might not know better. The use of the beacon to warn of aircraft operation has been in effect since the advent of turbine engines. This is not a new concept. Fast hands kill; rushing to do anything in aviation is usually a bad choice, with a potential fatal outcome; this case no different. The first thing anyone on the ramp should be taught, from hour .01 of their new career, is basic ramp safety.
That said, I've had personnel walk past engines while running, taxi behind me when powering up, simply walk away when being marshalled into a gate, frequently looking the other way and not at me during an arrival to the gate, and I've had to sit with an engine running for an hour (+) before ground power showed up when no APU was available. I've had ground crew disconnect external power before I decoupled it, resulting in a large arc and bang when they pulled the plug.
A friend, who flew hercs at the time, had a station manager who made a habit of opening the crew entrance door before the aircraft was shut down, and after multiple warnings, one day the crew left half an inch or so of pressure, and the door flattened him when he opened...never made that mistake again. I've seen ramp personnel start fueling, tie off the deadman switch, and walk away. Start loading aircraft without crew coordination resulting in nearly dropping the airplane on its tail. Pull chocks without authorization. Open doors with engines running.
The potential is always for unfortunate, but predictable results. This case, no different.
The excuse or reason for ignoring the beacon really doesn't matter, because the result is the same. It doesn't matter if someone was trying to get baggage quickly, or didn't know the APU was inoperative, or thought the left vs. right engine was shut down, or was trying to look good for the boss; the result is the same here, and the commonality to all is the beacon. It's there for a reason. As noted above, the possibility that the beacon was inoperative or turned off exists. Not every location jacks in and greets the crew on the intercom, and it's possible the ICS was broken, etc. Perhaps local tribal convention is to listen for the engines and then rush in, but if that's a practice despite the beacon, it's a damn foolish one. There are a lot of parts of the world where I did't get the beacon right away and everybody stood back and refused to approach, until that beacon went off...it's a worldwide convention.. Certainly there are stations that don't answer the radio, don't communicate, and even with an in-range call, still seem to be completely unaware a flight is coming, start running when "surprised" by the arrival. We've all seen it. I once had some dingbat wearing a hard-hat with a big flashing beacon on top at a government facility meet me at the ramp entrance, then run backward in a skip (try to do that, just try), while waving wants, for three quarters of a mile, until we arrived at the parking spot...with big radials turning everywhere. Once had a guy try to walk through the prop from the rear, between the fuselage and propeller of a large radial, to inform me about my aircraft type...and he had the wrong type. Nearly got him. All kinds of stupid pet tricks...but the bottom line is we have a beacon; the practice has been in use for a very long time now, and it's universal. There is literally no excuse for not waiting until the airplane is shut down,, regardless of pressure to turn airplanes, local tradition, etc. Bad habits kill.
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