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CS makes me hate my life. When they need - your a dog. When you need- your a dog.
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Originally Posted by trip
(Post 2116644)
You're lying about what's on the SAPA forums, or maybe you don't have access? Yeah I think the latter.
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Originally Posted by elmetal
(Post 2116844)
If at first you don't succeed, try once a day till the day of the trip. Someone will do it for you.
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Originally Posted by N1234
(Post 2116110)
I am still not sure union make sense. They are a phenomenon of the past - area of early industrialization. There are plenty of business - in fact the majority of free enterprises - that work just fine or better without a union. Look at what unions have done to the manufacturing sector in the US and most recently the automotive industry. It took major bail outs and all the job growth is the the south with Japanese and European manufacturers without a union.
Not being able to switch jobs at the appropriate level and having to start over at the bottom is only related to the seniority system. And that is self-induced as in pilot induced. It is probably not gonna change ever but our own doing. As for being paid for experience ... That is also a little misleading. People are generally paid for productivity. In many sectors that relates to experience to some extend. |
Originally Posted by doug_or
(Post 2116904)
And don't forget to try at different times of day; the different shifts can make a big difference as well.
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Originally Posted by Blackwing
(Post 2117320)
You sound like a Millenial who sees the seniority system as the barrier keeping you from taking your rightful place in the captain's seat.
There are issues with it just like the are with any system, but it's interesting to think about |
Seniority isn't the issue its pay based on longevity thats the issue. Slight difference.
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Originally Posted by Squallrider
(Post 2117448)
Seniority isn't the issue its pay based on longevity thats the issue. Slight difference.
I think both are issues. As pointed out before pay needs to be in line with productivity and our productivity only changes with equipment size. That ultimately drives the acceptable average unit cost. Wage distribution among the pilot group and longevity pay creates is own sets of problems because it damns an airline to constantly grow or at least to add a sufficient number of bodies at the bottom to keep the average unit cost down. At the end, management doesn't care how the money is distributed but only that the average unit cost are low enough. And that's a function of wage distribution across the pilot group, what we are paid on (credit vs. block) and how many hours they can squeeze out (90+) without increasing staffing and increasing training expenses. The issue with seniority is that it isn't merit based. Nobody graduate as a Valedictorian from HighSchool or College because you have spend the most amount of time there. People don't get management positions because they have the most seniority with a company. And that doesn't guarantee good management either. But the point is, it is merit based pretty much anywhere else. Making captain is great but all it means is that you stuck around long enough for your number to come up. That doesn't make you a bad captain but it also doesn't mean you are a good captain. All it means you stuck around long enough. I believe that is the primary reason that majors are so much into college degrees', community involvement, leadership etc. Because they are looking for merit based indicators of success than purely seniority based indicators. Either way, the system will not change but it may explain some of the dynamics in the market place. |
Originally Posted by N1234
(Post 2117478)
I think both are issues.
As pointed out before pay needs to be in line with productivity and our productivity only changes with equipment size. That ultimately drives the acceptable average unit cost. Wage distribution among the pilot group and longevity pay creates is own sets of problems because it damns an airline to constantly grow or at least to add a sufficient number of bodies at the bottom to keep the average unit cost down. At the end, management doesn't care how the money is distributed but only that the average unit cost are low enough. And that's a function of wage distribution across the pilot group, what we are paid on (credit vs. block) and how many hours they can squeeze out (90+) without increasing staffing and increasing training expenses. The issue with seniority is that it isn't merit based. Nobody graduate as a Valedictorian from HighSchool or College because you have spend the most amount of time there. People don't get management positions because they have the most seniority with a company. And that doesn't guarantee good management either. But the point is, it is merit based pretty much anywhere else. Making captain is great but all it means is that you stuck around long enough for your number to come up. That doesn't make you a bad captain but it also doesn't mean you are a good captain. All it means you stuck around long enough. I believe that is the primary reason that majors are so much into college degrees', community involvement, leadership etc. Because they are looking for merit based indicators of success than purely seniority based indicators. Either way, the system will not change but it may explain some of the dynamics in the market place. But keep trying, you might stumble upon it one day, much like a blind squirrel finds the illusive nut eventually. |
Originally Posted by N1234
(Post 2117478)
I think both are issues.
As pointed out before pay needs to be in line with productivity and our productivity only changes with equipment size. That ultimately drives the acceptable average unit cost. Wage distribution among the pilot group and longevity pay creates is own sets of problems because it damns an airline to constantly grow or at least to add a sufficient number of bodies at the bottom to keep the average unit cost down. At the end, management doesn't care how the money is distributed but only that the average unit cost are low enough. And that's a function of wage distribution across the pilot group, what we are paid on (credit vs. block) and how many hours they can squeeze out (90+) without increasing staffing and increasing training expenses. The issue with seniority is that it isn't merit based. Nobody graduate as a Valedictorian from HighSchool or College because you have spend the most amount of time there. People don't get management positions because they have the most seniority with a company. And that doesn't guarantee good management either. But the point is, it is merit based pretty much anywhere else. Making captain is great but all it means is that you stuck around long enough for your number to come up. That doesn't make you a bad captain but it also doesn't mean you are a good captain. All it means you stuck around long enough. I believe that is the primary reason that majors are so much into college degrees', community involvement, leadership etc. Because they are looking for merit based indicators of success than purely seniority based indicators. Either way, the system will not change but it may explain some of the dynamics in the market place. Seniority is a horrible way to rank pilots...the problem is that it's better than any other scheme anyone has ever come with up. You can't readily measure merit in a line pilot. Tried-and-failed schemes... Just leave it up to the boss: The brown-nosers gets the upgrade and Christmas off. On-time or other operational performance: The guy who takes shortcuts (and sacrifices safety margins) gets ahead. Sim/Training Performance: Everybody who's been around longer than a couple years knows that this can be pretty subjective. It's decent at identifying the bottom 5% who need extra help/attention but a very bad way of ranking competent pilots. Again it would turn into who's buddies with which instructor/evaluator. Or you could assign merit based on online training bulletin scores :rolleyes: Seniority is the fairest system so far in that it is... 1) Entirely predictable, you know where you stand 2) Essentially tamper-proof, in that nobody can change your seniority order on a whim. It has some clear drawbacks, but everybody going in knows the score, that you're stuck on the escalator. If you want a more dynamic, competitive environment, join the military (a lot of us do...). |
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