NarcolepticAV8R

Define “clearly”.

ROFF

It really isn’t much different. At this point in the career you really should be able to figure it out pretty quick. I personally don’t need my hand held for several days to figure out the landing gear lever is in a different spot or a blue light is omitted.

Scoop

MCAS doesn’t operate, or is not supposed to operate when the autopilot is on? Well maybe the MCAS isn’t supposed to operate when the autopilot is engaged but isn’t the whole issue about a “flaw” in the system?

If aircraft are pitching down for no reason then it would seem to me a system is not functioning as designed. Something is amiss. Maybe it’s a flaw, maybe it’s a training issue - maybe it’s a little bit of both. Either way we will know more shortly.

Scoop

Adlerdriver

I don’t know what the whole issue is about. None of the investigations are complete.

PolishFlyerDude

The Lion Air incident, and possibly the Ethiopian Airlines incident, is looking like the primary cause might be linked to a single point of failure (an AOA vane) causing the activation of the previously undisclosed MCAS system while at the same time presenting the pilots with a host of distracting and confusing indications.

-The stick shakers would be activated without the ability to silence them for the duration of the flight (unless the CB’s were pulled).

-Possible invalid airspeed indications (not sure how a bad AOA vane is processed and then displayed to the pilot’s by the air data computer).

-Probably the red and yellow stall bars are biased up, contributing to the pilots (along with the stick shaker) thinking they’re in a stall.

-Nose down trim is being applied by MCAS while all of this is going on. Imo, there’s a good chance this wouldn’t even be recognized at first since the pilot’s brains are probably on fire trying to figure out wtf is going on with stick shakers and airspeed indications. They might think the increasing nose-down weight of the yoke has something to do with being in an actual stall.

-It would be a lot to process. We also don’t know for sure right now that there might not be some other indications or failure modes that contributed to one or both accidents. Lion Air has not issued a final report and Ethiopian Is only at the very initial stages of determining what happened. To me, it makes sense to ground right now. Two brand new airplanes crashing within less than five months of each other is likely not a coincidence (especially when there are only approx 300 MAX’s currently delivered).

hoover

Wasn't it VMC? Why not look outside, use pitch and power and get your head out of the cockpit?
Foreign carriers rely heavily on automation. When it doesn't work planes crash.
Not saying there wasn't a problem with a system but there sure is a problem with lack of flying skills in countries developing avaiation.

Salukidawg

^^^^^^This, exactly.

rickair7777

I tend to agree that any US crew, who is actually flying a MAX today, should be able to deal with this.

But the public does not understand the nuanced distinction between foriegn and US pilot cultures and experience. Onviously public perception and confidence in the aviation system is important, so the grounding was probably the right thing to do. I heard a rumor the USG was looking at some information sources to rule out explosives/terrorism since there were rumors of that and some bizarre eyewitness reports. Apparently nothing found along those lines, so combined with Lionair, reasonable (not conclusive) suspicion that the plane has an issue.

All Bizniz

Pitch and Power works if the aircraft is responding as predicted to your inputs.

In this failure case, it sounds like the MCAS system would be repeatedly pitching the aircraft nose down while you're trying to bring the nose up. Being VMC would've just give you a better view of the roller coaster ride while you're desperately trying to wrap your head around the situation.

Btw, as I understand it, there were previous Lion Air crews who were able to deal with a similar failure, no?

After the Air France iced over pitot probe crash (which btw more than one foreign crew had dealt with adequately previously), every airline in the world started introducing that scenario to their crews in the sim and most crews including those in the US had difficulty initially, until the training highlighted the correct response.

Studies have shown that our flying skills are eroding as a result of more reliance on automation. But that's not unique to the rest of the world. It is very much the case in the US too..

The solution obviously is that every pilot should make the effort once in a while to kick off the automation and get back in touch with our airplanes.

Tango Uniform

Could anything have to do with a jet designed in the 1960's being stretched and pushed beyond its actual design limits? Trying to make the 737 into a 757 without design costs of a new jet?