Spirit of NKS
04-18-2015, 11:31 AM
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2012
Posts: 27
Originally Posted by gonyon
+1000. Why people are so hell bent on working their their days off kills me
1. Why the feeding frenzy for OT at 100%? Because many of our lines are only built to guarantee and, at what are subpar rates, many feel the need to supplement income. It has nothing to do with WANTING to work on days off, which I am just going to go ahead and call a retarded assumption. Without getting an outside job, or joining the training department, the only way to do that is to pick up at 100% or hope for a JA at 200%. Do you see another option?
2. If someone does need to pick up extra flying on a day off, they should be compensated for giving up their own time. As someone said previously, that is the reward for such and most airlines offer it. I don't know why someone would want to argue against this when it is fairly standard. Don't look only at industry standard pay rates, look at the entire package. We want an industry standard compensation package.
3. I continually hear the argument that we should go for pay rates and bite our tongue on the rest for now because, "The longer the negotiation takes, that is just money out of our pockets." That is what a retroactive pay agreement is for. Want to know more? Go talk to the other airlines that have successfully implemented it, the most recent of which is American.
04-18-2015, 11:34 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,420
Originally Posted by Plane Ramrod
I am looking at this round as 150% is gone forever.
I hope we get an escalating open time trip schedule where trips they fear they can't cover get flagged for 150-200 percent. Interested pilots could get text updates when they get flagged. Bet that would cut down on the time schedulers are spending on the phone calling me on my days off when I am balls deep into everything other than thinking about work!
Then those with superior "work ethic" can get there's while those of us with superior "relax ethic" won't get bothered.
But not at the expense of industry standard pay!
04-18-2015, 11:41 AM
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
Originally Posted by Tranquility
Joey, some things to consider...
Firstly, those who want the 150% back tend to be those hired 2008 and earlier. They're not going anywhere. They can afford to wait for their ideal contract. People like you and me can still jump ship and make a great career elsewhere, but every paycheck we wait for our next contract is money out of our pockets. Money that could be compounding in a 401k, money that could be building in your kids 529 (dunno if you have kids), money that could be paying off your mortgage, money you could be using for your dream car...etc.
Secondly, if you remember the pay comparison slides, those from the middle to the top of the pay scale need less of a raise to get to IA. Their biggest raise might actually come from getting 150%. Those at the top only needed 12% vs. junior captains and all FOs who need a 30+% pay bump to get IA. They're making decent coin, they can afford to wait...
Am I willing to hold up a potential early 30+% pay bump over getting say long-call reserve?? Eff no! Am I willing to give up our holy grails in our work rules to archive said pay bump or other gains? Eff no! And if that happens, we dilute our rules to more industry average, I'll be voting with my feet.
As you can tell, pay is my biggest issue. That doesn't mean I want other areas addressed/tightened up (scope/merger protection & code-share rules, LTD). But, pay is my biggest concern.
Firstly, those who want the 150% back tend to be those hired 2008 and earlier. They're not going anywhere. They can afford to wait for their ideal contract. People like you and me can still jump ship and make a great career elsewhere, but every paycheck we wait for our next contract is money out of our pockets. Money that could be compounding in a 401k, money that could be building in your kids 529 (dunno if you have kids), money that could be paying off your mortgage, money you could be using for your dream car...etc.
Secondly, if you remember the pay comparison slides, those from the middle to the top of the pay scale need less of a raise to get to IA. Their biggest raise might actually come from getting 150%. Those at the top only needed 12% vs. junior captains and all FOs who need a 30+% pay bump to get IA. They're making decent coin, they can afford to wait...
Am I willing to hold up a potential early 30+% pay bump over getting say long-call reserve?? Eff no! Am I willing to give up our holy grails in our work rules to archive said pay bump or other gains? Eff no! And if that happens, we dilute our rules to more industry average, I'll be voting with my feet.
As you can tell, pay is my biggest issue. That doesn't mean I want other areas addressed/tightened up (scope/merger protection & code-share rules, LTD). But, pay is my biggest concern.
I agree with everything here
04-18-2015, 11:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 4,603
Originally Posted by gonyon
I hope we get an escalating open time trip schedule where trips they fear they can't cover get flagged for 150-200 percent. Interested pilots could get text updates when they get flagged. Bet that would cut down on the time schedulers are spending on the phone calling me on my days off when I am balls deep into everything other than thinking about work!
Then those with superior "work ethic" can get there's while those of us with superior "relax ethic" won't get bothered.
But not at the expense of industry standard pay!
Then those with superior "work ethic" can get there's while those of us with superior "relax ethic" won't get bothered.
But not at the expense of industry standard pay!
04-18-2015, 11:46 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: A320HD
Posts: 307
Originally Posted by gonyon
With the feeding frenzie around here for the open offered at 100%, why would the company see any reason to offer 150% on all open time pick up?
Let me ask you directly, do you pick up open time at straight pay currently?
Let me ask you directly, do you pick up open time at straight pay currently?
I cannot say I haven't picked up a trip at straight pay at some time in the past. I have adjusted my schedule to better suit my quality of life and sometimes that means working a higher credit trip on the same day(s), sometimes it's lower. It annoys me that all of the DOT trips get picked up at straight pay, especially when the days are red and I have an extra day or two (maybe due to TX) I'm willing to JA. That said it is not my place to tell a new hire trying to support his/her family what he can or can't do.
04-18-2015, 11:50 AM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: A320HD
Posts: 307
Originally Posted by gonyon
I guess I should clarify that the bit I don't get is the "I won't vote yes on anything without 150%". I would find that hard to believe if our rates were brought up to the industry average.
04-18-2015, 12:07 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,420
Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot
This industry standard pay phrase is maddening! Everyone else is already negotiating again on those rates. If we get industry standard then we are going to be the lowest paid agin very soon. Industry leading is the goal. Say it to yourself- "industry leading"
Oh I don't mean yesterday's standard today. You're right we need leading today which will probably standard tomorrow
04-18-2015, 12:07 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2010
Posts: 1,420
Originally Posted by lowandslow
Fortunately in the last couple of months the DOT hasn't been completely drained in a day. There is no reason for them to "offer" us anything, that's why we have people who negotiate an agreement on our behalf. I understand the 150% ship has probably sailed and there is a specific amount of negotiating capital each of us is willing to use to obtain it. In my view it is a concession that we won't get back unless the bottom line is being effected.
I cannot say I haven't picked up a trip at straight pay at some time in the past. I have adjusted my schedule to better suit my quality of life and sometimes that means working a higher credit trip on the same day(s), sometimes it's lower. It annoys me that all of the DOT trips get picked up at straight pay, especially when the days are red and I have an extra day or two (maybe due to TX) I'm willing to JA. That said it is not my place to tell a new hire trying to support his/her family what he can or can't do.
I cannot say I haven't picked up a trip at straight pay at some time in the past. I have adjusted my schedule to better suit my quality of life and sometimes that means working a higher credit trip on the same day(s), sometimes it's lower. It annoys me that all of the DOT trips get picked up at straight pay, especially when the days are red and I have an extra day or two (maybe due to TX) I'm willing to JA. That said it is not my place to tell a new hire trying to support his/her family what he can or can't do.
Fair enough.
04-18-2015, 12:44 PM
escaped
Joined APC: Aug 2011
Posts: 227
Pay needs a huge improvement, to even keep up with our peers.
We are forced to supplement our income, by working on days off, because of:
Poorly planned inefficient lines.
Low hourly pay/min guarantee.
Low 401K matching.
etc.
These above items deserve our highest priority.
Premium overtime pay is great, except that it is controlled by crew planning/scheduling, NOT us.
Open time and transition conflicts, which I like, are also controlled by the company.
I still want to have those options, only as options, not something my finances depend on.
Once we depend on anything that is company controlled to supplement our income, instead of improving guarantee and pay,
we have given away our financial future to the discretion of the company.
It makes sense to fight for rules that are concrete, and not company controlled.
We are forced to supplement our income, by working on days off, because of:
Poorly planned inefficient lines.
Low hourly pay/min guarantee.
Low 401K matching.
etc.
These above items deserve our highest priority.
Premium overtime pay is great, except that it is controlled by crew planning/scheduling, NOT us.
Open time and transition conflicts, which I like, are also controlled by the company.
I still want to have those options, only as options, not something my finances depend on.
Once we depend on anything that is company controlled to supplement our income, instead of improving guarantee and pay,
we have given away our financial future to the discretion of the company.
It makes sense to fight for rules that are concrete, and not company controlled.
04-18-2015, 12:58 PM
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2012
Position: A 320
Posts: 265
Originally Posted by Jett i son
Pay needs a huge improvement, to even keep up with our peers.
We are forced to supplement our income, by working on days off, because of:
Poorly planned inefficient lines.
Low hourly pay/min guarantee.
Low 401K matching.
etc.
These above items deserve our highest priority.
Premium overtime pay is great, except that it is controlled by crew planning/scheduling, NOT us.
Open time and transition conflicts, which I like, are also controlled by the company.
I still want to have those options, only as options, not something my finances depend on.
Once we depend on anything that is company controlled to supplement our income, instead of improving guarantee and pay,
we have given away our financial future to the discretion of the company.
It makes sense to fight for rules that are concrete, and not company controlled.
We are forced to supplement our income, by working on days off, because of:
Poorly planned inefficient lines.
Low hourly pay/min guarantee.
Low 401K matching.
etc.
These above items deserve our highest priority.
Premium overtime pay is great, except that it is controlled by crew planning/scheduling, NOT us.
Open time and transition conflicts, which I like, are also controlled by the company.
I still want to have those options, only as options, not something my finances depend on.
Once we depend on anything that is company controlled to supplement our income, instead of improving guarantee and pay,
we have given away our financial future to the discretion of the company.
It makes sense to fight for rules that are concrete, and not company controlled.
Thread
Thread Starter
Forum
Replies
Last Post
