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Old 08-27-2015, 07:23 AM   #13461  
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Originally Posted by bruhaha View Post
Red eyes count as 2-day trips, and trips that end past midnight also count as a extra day needing reserve coverage - although not for pay credit purposes.
Yep, I considered that as well.... Still only count 4, while the grid shows 7....
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Old 08-27-2015, 07:30 AM   #13462  
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The other issue with this profession is that there will always be the dreamers ready to undercut you. Look at the cadet programs in Europe or even the regionals here. There is very little difference in the skill set required to fly a 777 or an rj. Maybe the compensation level at the regionals is below what the market demands right now but I bet if there were no unions in the US airline industry the market pay would stabilize somewhere around what frontier is paying with the FARs for work rules for all fleet types. This just so happens to be one of those careers that has a certain mystique and fun factor that people will be willing to do it for just enough to cover their education cost and not starve after that. Would a doctor or lawyer do that? No, because while those may be rewarding careers, they don't have to "fun factor" so no one is going to do it for free like the would to fly a plane.

Unionism in this profession protects us from ourselves IMO. Take a look at open time at any airline. Most have little restriction on open time pickups and therefore most of it gets picked up at straight pay. Whereas if we all united to not pick up open time then the airline would have to either hire more pilots boosting our seniority or up the compensation on open time but the free market prevails and many are willing to do it at straight pay. Now imagine the jobs were like open time. My guess is there would be plenty of pilots willing to do those jobs for less than they currently pay. Union group think protects us from that by giving us the feeling of power in numbers. If it were every man for himself my guess would be most of us would do it for less and those that decide to leave would be replaced easily.

The free market is a mother fukcer to the worker. If it's a low skilled job then the supply and demand forces push wages down. FYI most jobs in this country are considered low skill because technology is replacing many high skill jobs eliminating the middle class. With fewer high skilled jobs available you will see more people getting educated to do those jobs because the only other choice is min wage.

As more and more become educated you increase the supply of skilled workers competing for a stagnant or decreasing supply of skilled jobs. That pushes wages down for even once well compensated jobs. The last to fall are high skilled jobs that have the highest barriers to entry (surgeon) or the high skilled jobs that have high barriers to entry and are also unpleasant on a day to day basis (lawyer or Wall Street banker). Those first to fall will have lower barriers to entry and or have the appearance of a somewhat enjoyable work day (airline pilot) even though those are highly skilled and historically well compensated jobs.

Technology has squeezed the middle towards the poles increasing the supply of workers and bringing down wages. The two solutions without changing the supply and demand forces is to leave the rat race and strike out on your own. Build a better mouse trap and let the market determine your with. If successful you will be on the right side of the worker supply and demand equation and will be able to keep your employee's wages low. The problem is that the consumers of your products are usually workers that are constantly having their wages depressed so they demand cheaper products which requires you to depress the wages of your own workers so you don't take money out of your own pocket (the job creator).

The other solution if you wish to stay a worker the free market is working against you so the only way to leverage against the market is for current workers to work as a team and not as individuals. That means unionizing. You are your own are replaceable and insignificant even if highly skilled. However as a group you cannot be replaced overnight. That gives you leverage to keep wages up because even new entrants must work under the propped up wages of the CBA.

Yay for free markets.

Last edited by Qotsaautopilot; 08-27-2015 at 08:02 AM.
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Old 08-27-2015, 08:27 AM   #13463  
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So many pilots preach the beauty or the free market without knowing what side they actually live on. Embrace unionism. It's working for you even with its flaws. Without pilot unions we'd all be working for much less or not at all. Unless you just enjoy being self loathing.
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:41 AM   #13464  
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Originally Posted by Qotsaautopilot View Post
So many pilots preach the beauty or the free market without knowing what side they actually live on. Embrace unionism. It's working for you even with its flaws. Without pilot unions we'd all be working for much less or not at all. Unless you just enjoy being self loathing.
You say this with such certainty, it's sickening. I can think of two airlines that weren't union, Virgin American and JetBlue, and they are working for much more than us. I know, work rules...

The opposite of free markets is socialism. How's that working out for Venezuela?

Venezuela's food shortage worsens - Business Insider
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Old 08-27-2015, 10:51 AM   #13465  
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JetBlue and virgin were being brought up by the big union airlines. If there were no pilot unions at all, they nor any other group would have the current pay they do.

Venezuela's entire economy is manipulated by the government. I'm not saying the free market is all bad, I'm just saying IMO pilots should have less hate for unionism because after all, they are in one. And IMO is why this is still a job worth having. I'm for collective bargaining and the balance of power not socialism. Some think that if you're a unionist you're not for completely free markets and you are a socialist. Unions operate in a free market. They just unite the workers together so they cannot be whipsawed against each other.
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Old 08-28-2015, 05:31 AM   #13466  
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What does the average line look like at Spirit, particularly in the DFW base? Are they real heavy on 4-day trips or are there a lot of day trips and 2-days available as well? Are the junior lineholders averaging 15+ days off too or does it take a lot more seniority for that?

Also, for someone potentially being hired at Spirit right now, is 5-6 years a fairly safe guess at the earliest possible upgrade time?

Thanks!
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Old 08-28-2015, 08:16 AM   #13467  
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What does the average line look like at Spirit, particularly in the DFW base? Are they real heavy on 4-day trips or are there a lot of day trips and 2-days available as well? Are the junior lineholders averaging 15+ days off too or does it take a lot more seniority for that?

Also, for someone potentially being hired at Spirit right now, is 5-6 years a fairly safe guess at the earliest possible upgrade time?

Thanks!
DFW lines have been going downhill lately. Almost all are 14-16 days off with 2 leg redeyes in the middle and 1-2 weekends off. Turn lines have virtually been eliminated (only 2 for September) and are very senior. The guy that builds the schedules bids #1 so there is always one line in DFW that is the best in the system with conflicts on both sides and high days off.
Spirit has not been growing DFW for quite some time so it is becoming very senior on the FO side and frankly with Southwest doing their thing at LUV it doesnt look like it will grow much anytime soon. As far as upgrade time goes I would plan around 2021 or beyond. Anyone hired today is looking at senior FO or bottom CA as a career expectation. Of course that could change with another airplane order but I wouldnt plan my career based on an imaginary order that is at least 6+ years away. We have a ton of young Captains so assuming we get a decent contract relatively quickly most movement will come from people coming in behind you with negligable upward movement.
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Old 08-28-2015, 09:49 AM   #13468  
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DFW lines have been going downhill lately. Almost all are 14-16 days off with 2 leg redeyes in the middle and 1-2 weekends off. Turn lines have virtually been eliminated (only 2 for September) and are very senior. The guy that builds the schedules bids #1 so there is always one line in DFW that is the best in the system with conflicts on both sides and high days off.
Spirit has not been growing DFW for quite some time so it is becoming very senior on the FO side and frankly with Southwest doing their thing at LUV it doesnt look like it will grow much anytime soon. As far as upgrade time goes I would plan around 2021 or beyond. Anyone hired today is looking at senior FO or bottom CA as a career expectation. Of course that could change with another airplane order but I wouldnt plan my career based on an imaginary order that is at least 6+ years away. We have a ton of young Captains so assuming we get a decent contract relatively quickly most movement will come from people coming in behind you with negligable upward movement.
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Old 08-28-2015, 02:37 PM   #13469  
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Originally Posted by Dr Pepper View Post
DFW lines have been going downhill lately. Almost all are 14-16 days off with 2 leg redeyes in the middle and 1-2 weekends off. Turn lines have virtually been eliminated (only 2 for September) and are very senior. The guy that builds the schedules bids #1 so there is always one line in DFW that is the best in the system with conflicts on both sides and high days off.

Spirit has not been growing DFW for quite some time so it is becoming very senior on the FO side and frankly with Southwest doing their thing at LUV it doesnt look like it will grow much anytime soon. As far as upgrade time goes I would plan around 2021 or beyond. Anyone hired today is looking at senior FO or bottom CA as a career expectation. Of course that could change with another airplane order but I wouldnt plan my career based on an imaginary order that is at least 6+ years away. We have a ton of young Captains so assuming we get a decent contract relatively quickly most movement will come from people coming in behind you with negligable upward movement.

Spot on.


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Old 08-28-2015, 02:53 PM   #13470  
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Thank you for the replies. Is this a fairly new development and is it company-wide? Spirit has always appealed to me in part because of the perceived QOL advantages over the legacies. This sounds a bit different from what I've heard in the past. Either way it's good to know.

Have any DFW routes been cut since Southwest expanded DAL? Or are they holding steady so far despite the thinner margins?
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