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Old 05-27-2014, 05:23 PM   #7421  
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That's the response I always hear from the union..still waiting for the proof to back it up. Still waiting on the 150% to come back as well, which I was told by our national all star that it would happen in Dec 2012..
Just curious, what would be the union's reason for jamming up the red/green grid?
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:52 PM   #7422  
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Just curious, what would be the union's reason for jamming up the red/green grid?
Good question.. Maybe it's their response to us wanting to arbitrate, arbitrate all the time and not working on an LOA.. IDK..
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Old 05-27-2014, 05:55 PM   #7423  
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Red/green and the 29 hour cap lay solely at the feet of management. Your frustration is misdirected if you blame the union for those issues. Unless of course you attribute the red/green fiasco to the removal of certain management pilots from our seniority list. That had to happen by the way.
Not being an OT flyer, and having been a commuter up til Dec 12, and being senior enough to get an acceptable schedule which worked for me without post award manipulation,……….. I'm not certain just WHAT happened in late 2012 regarding Red/Green because I wasn't really trying to trade or drop. Can you detail what happened that lead to Spirit changing the amount of green days?

As for the management pilots, you seem to have inside info so tell us why they had to be removed from the seniority list. I agree that they should have been placed in the proper seniority, but am not sure just why they had to be removed.

Back in the day, ALPA encouraged members to move both up and down. Something about who they are ultimately loyal to I believe.

Finally, regarding management pilot flying. Way back in 2006, your MEC signed two LOA's that should have set a precedent for allowing management to fly. I wonder why that precedent hasn't been followed these last four years?

For those wondering, the language in our then current contract was very grey regarding management flying. In one section it provided for management to fly a certain percentage of flying, or at least it provided for management withholding a certain amount of fly - ostensibly for management pilots to fly. In another it said that anyone flying a Spirit airplane had to be on the seniority list and in another place it said (like most other contracts) that a pilot could not fly out of seniority. In 2006 the MEC set a precedent that Spirit would give us something for every management pilot that was allowed to fly. That is, by name every non-seniority list pilot had his own LOA. And all of those LOA's gave the pilot group something with no give on our part. Essentially, the management pilots were allowed to fly but they were restricted from acting as reserves or from flying any OT. ALL flying they accomplished must be taken from assigned flying. *** If the assigned pilot was Captain, he/she had to remain on the trip but was guaranteed a Big Front Seat (first class size). FO's were released from the entire trip, 24 hours prior to show time, and owed the company nothing. No time available, nothing. It's been eight years, but I seem to remember that the three hour reserve time was the flip side of allowing the DO to fly.

This was the case under Contract 2003 with LOA's. I don't understand how we came to allow multiple management pilots to fly out of seniority and without a seniority number. What happened?


***that was a huge win. Setting the precedent that the management pilots could not act as reserves/count toward proper staffing was huge.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:00 PM   #7424  
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Just curious, what would be the union's reason for jamming up the red/green grid?

Spirit ALPA is of course not jamming up the red/green grid. But as I asked a couple of posts ago, what changed 18 months ago. Why did Spirit scheduling change the red/green system? I assume the language didn't change, what changed?
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:08 PM   #7425  
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First year pay should go up. How much? I don't know. It won't be the top 5 or so things on the list to negotiate I hope. People don't leave here because of the first year pay. I'd argue FO pay in years 2,3 and 4 being raised to match Delta would do more to attract and keep people here than adjusting first year pay. But yes, $38.50/hr is a joke.
Really? You're talking about the first year living standard for professional pilots who average over ten years experience. Just because they don't leave because of first year pay doesn't mean that first year pay is acceptable.

Why do we care about attracting and keeping people here?

Pilots don't unionize to "attract people here", pilots unionize to enhance/protect our careers.

Let the company worry about employee retention, we need to worry about having the best pay and working conditions we can have for ALL Spirit pilots.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:14 PM   #7426  
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Good question.. Maybe it's their response to us wanting to arbitrate, arbitrate all the time and not working on an LOA.. IDK..
I'm not a union rep. Let's get that out of the way. My understanding is that management won't agree to negotiate on any front: LOA or otherwise. The most illustrative example of their bargaining style is in the run up to the 2010 strike: who they sent to bargain, etc. I am as dumbfounded by how we got here as most line pilots, I just don't ascribe to the 'blame ALPA' mantra. Is ALPA blameless, probably not. But my own opinion is the majority of the blame rests with Miramar.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:18 PM   #7427  
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Really? You're talking about the first year living standard for professional pilots who average over ten years experience. Just because they don't leave because of first year pay doesn't mean that first year pay is acceptable.

Why do we care about attracting and keeping people here?

Pilots don't unionize to "attract people here", pilots unionize to enhance/protect our careers.

Let the company worry about employee retention, we need to worry about having the best pay and working conditions we can have for ALL Spirit pilots.
I agree it has to go up. I've already said that. If you think it should be priority #1 at the negotiating table, then I choose to disagree vehemently. First year pay will always be a peripheral goal as long as new hire classes are filled.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:21 PM   #7428  
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Good question.. Maybe it's their response to us wanting to arbitrate, arbitrate all the time and not working on an LOA.. IDK..
As an add on, I'm sure Miramar would fix the red/green grid in exchange for giving up the four days off or accepting PBS. Is that the type of negotiating you want our union to entertain? Sometimes they need to keep Pandora's Box closed.
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Old 05-27-2014, 06:41 PM   #7429  
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If I hear "give up" something from anybody one more time I am going to scream. We are THE MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE US. Why the heck do we have to "give something". We should not!!!!!!!!
Jesus people. I understand that nobody want the company to pay us so much that we go bankrupt, but there should be no talk of giving up ANYTHING. We stand to gain!!!!!
Grow a pair and realize that we are worth more, and will soon be very hard to replace!
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Old 05-27-2014, 08:04 PM   #7430  
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If I hear "give up" something from anybody one more time I am going to scream. We are THE MOST PROFITABLE AIRLINE IN THE US. Why the heck do we have to "give something". We should not!!!!!!!!
Jesus people. I understand that nobody want the company to pay us so much that we go bankrupt, but there should be no talk of giving up ANYTHING. We stand to gain!!!!!
Grow a pair and realize that we are worth more, and will soon be very hard to replace!
Ditto.. We give nothing! SWA +1!
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