SonicFlyer

False cause... Market forces trump unions. Remember when pay actually went down? Unions couldn't stop that. Just because pay increases significantly is not necessarily due to the union.

GogglesPisano

You're missing the point. Admittedly market forces will rule the day. But can you not admit that collective bargaining adds some sort of premium and a certain amount of job security?

I noticed you still haven't answered my questions.

Av8or found the perfect experiment: Why do Netjets pilots earn a premium over their non-union corporate peers?

Why do you think this is such a heavily-unionized profession?

Can you give me en example of a pilot group that voted out a union with no replacement?

Time to be honest with yourself and leave that libertarian bubble.

terminal

And in 2016 our President was elected with a minority.
Bet you’re a Trump supporter who doesn’t see the irony.

deltajuliet

Maybe the answer is those people shouldn’t be legally entitled to the services of the union. Let them negotiate on their own; I doubt many companies would take the time.

It’s also been illustrated ad nauseum that our situation is fundamentally different than most professions and a union is a necessary evil.

Without these protections, if we lived in a completely right-to-work industry, airlines would just fire pilots the second they topped out on the pay scale.

That’s not quite the reality of our situation now, even if the unions all decertified overnight, but we would be forfeiting a lot of the benefits we’ve come to enjoy.

I do believe in merit-based advancement with most things in life, but how on earth could you ever quantify and rank that in a seniority list of thousands?

Given the chance, I’m sure a lot of pilots would choose to not pay union dues. We’re a shortsighted and selfish bunch. History has shown there will never be a shortage of pilots stepping on each other for personal gain. Consequently I hope this development doesn’t make its way into our industry.

We have enough forces trying to drag down our profession; we don’t need to be one of them too.

https://www.alpa.org/~/media/ALPA/Fi...line-vol-1.pdf

http://www3.alpa.org/publications/Fl...he_Line_II.pdf

Happyflyer

They made the case that "required contract negoication cost" are not necessarily all that the money is spent on.

My ALPA pilot agreement states that the dues are 1.9% and the required "contract negotiating cost" if a pilot elects to not become a memeber are also 1.9%.

I think wasteful spending and bad accounting are more to blame than republicans. If they'd actually broke out contract cost speerate from general dues this wouldn't have happened and furthermore no members would even be upset.
Greedy unions break out fee structure, but not back end accountability, how can ALPA claim contract cost for non memebers are 1.9% for forever?

In the 1970's the judges made the right decision by allowing dues to be spectate from contract cost. 40 years later the judges made the right decision again because unions proved they could just funnel all the money they wanted through the "contract cost" provision. Unions had 40 years to reform their agenda and play right, but choose to carry on.

Happyflyer

I find it separately ironic that DEMOCRATS are making an argument about "free riders" which has merit, and they are the biggest proponents of Medicaid and welfare.

Flytolive

Cool. Taxes optional at least in your fantasyland. What other democratic laws can we opt out of? Absolutely. If someone wants to opt out of joining the union then they can pay the agency fees or opt for working at a different airlines. Plenty of non-union jobs out there at which to opt in.

Happyflyer

This would only be true if every single pilot at the company had to a job threating carpet dance and the union saved them.
In my experience 90% of the pilots have never needed direct union protection, and in turn the union has to focus 90% of their time and money on the same 10% of knot heads.
Do I wanna pay union dues because the "Union" decided to spend a fortune on someone who shows up drunk, or calls in sick 35 times a year, no. Do I think unions save people's jobs who are a real POS, yes.
Do I wanna pay contract cost, to better my future, sure basic return on investment.
Your only real argument is union dues are insurance against a bad boss, and therefore we should all pay them which I understand.

None of this means SCOTUS incorrectly interpreted free speech, because it may cause harm to a system we value.

SonicFlyer

Actually no I didn't support Trump. And he was elected by a minority because that's the way the system works as specified in the Constitution. Besides, according to the Constitution the President isn't supposed to have much power at all, so most of the time the Executive should be fairly inconsequential.

SonicFlyer

Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that. If people don't pay the dues they shouldn't get the benefit. But they shouldn't be forced to pay the dues either.




You fail to understand how a free market works because that would not happen. Some airlines want the very best no matter the cost. Some will be ok with lower quality pilots.

It happens with almost every other profession. Look at the military for example.