The reason for pay protections is that displaced pilots already faced a 30% pay cut; with the TA, and no pay protection many would face an additional 30% reduction in take-home pay due to reduced hours. A cumulative 60% cut! That would certainly not be right.
The pay protections are necessary to prevent that.

 

It sounds like you’re relieved that this TA took your 60% pay cut and transferred it to the lower 1/3. I’ll borrow your quote as it applies to the lower 1/4 now, “that certainly would not be right.”

 

Well, when this TA came out I was not in favor of it. After sleeping on it for a few days, and talking to different folks, I will be voting yes.

I’d rather take this LOA than face what is potentially on the other side if this thing fails. Pick your poison, I suppose.

 

If I’m voting yes it is certainly to HELP the lower 1/3. Are you suggesting that this TA is hurting the lower 1/3 overall? The rest of us don’t get a raise if this passes. I’m not sure what you mean by “my 60% pay cut”; the cut in take-home pay for those displaced in the middle third will stay at 20-30% regardless if this passes or not. That was my point as to why pay protection is a necessity (obviously I’m rounding numbers).
Furlough pay remains intact at full MPG, if and when that happens, btw. For the ones who are in a hurry to leave, there are guaranteed, rolling 3-month COLAs.
I do understand the 50% hourly cut is a tough pill to swallow for those toward the top of the lower 1/3, but I think it’s better than the high risk of getting furloughed for possibly years, with none of these options available.

 

I get why this philosophy is worth considering… Obviously we don’t want to move forward thinking that any bad thing that happens to us is the fault of the union. That said, the company is offering to spread the remaining flying, unevenly and favoring seniority, throughout the entire Pilot group, rather than giving it all to the top half or 2/3rds (depending on demand and future furloughs) of our group. So if we vote no, we are voting that we would rather furlough, than share the pain. I don’t think that is wrong inherently, but I do think that we should be honest about the fact that the choice is in our hands. If you want to play the “we don’t do _____ , someone else does it”… Then the company doesn’t furlough pilots, economic recessions do, right? The company is responsible for deciding how to staff an airline given suppressed demand. In this situation, they have passed that decision making onto us. Really tough and unprecedented choice, I fully get it. But instead of shying away from the choice that we have, we need to own it. How would you feel if Scott Kirby said, “ I didnt furlough you, Covid did?“

to me the union is more than simple representation. However, I think that is an idealogical position, and I respect that other people see the union having a smaller role of collective-bargaining and subsequent contract enforcement. I like the idea of more leadership and career stewardship. That is just my opinion

although I do not have a furlough letter, I am a captain in the bottom third. As long as we are in super suppressed demand, I will be making a good bit less as a halftime captain, than I would as a full-time FO. I am fortunate that a furlough would not affect me anywhere near as bad as others, but as I have stated, I spent my last year flying with new hires. There are so many examples of great people who have done everything right (Put money in savings for unforeseen events, chosen to live Near a support network, etc.) and yet will still face incredible hardship if they get furloughed.

I definitely understand that some people are luckier than others with his agreement, but I think you could find those individuals in every tier . My displaced widebody captain bud who already has a good retirement fund, who faced 18 days a month of the narrowbody grind, now gets to stay on his jet and work even less than before.. let me tell you, he would be STOKED. The important thing I think, is to look at this TA as a whole and see if it attempted to favor seniority, and I largely believe it did. It is far from perfect, but don’t let perfect be the enemy of the good. The windfalls you speak of, are an incredibly small percentage of our pilots. The obvious beneficiaries are potential furloughs, that is certain. That said, I personally believe that if we zoom out and look at the health of our airline five years from now, rather than each of our take-home pay next April, I think this is our best bet. time will tell

 

Sounds like a good deal, doesn't it? Unless a vaccine comes out, we suddenly get back close to normal, and someone just picked up and moved his family to the other side of the country for a new job planning his life around what's written in the UPA(bypass rights), then the TA ends early and United makes him come back at the end of his current 3-month COLA.

I get it, it's unlikely, but we all need to think about worst-case scenario. The COLA section doesn't seem like it was well thought out, especially since the executive summary doesn't seem to match the TA language.

 

bingo

filler

 

Bingo, well said. Gimme that VF w/ bypass because I already have things lined up after riding this carousel w/ a letter the last few weeks. And I don't intend on riding it for another 6-9 months.

 

Serious question not trying to start anything but why isn’t the top union officials taking part of this as well? They still get their 90 something hour pay. Is it written somewhere in the bylaws or part of the job. Seems like a good show of leadership and unity is that if we all have to eat this S sandwich those drafting and voting on it should have to partake as well.

to me it seems a little disingenuous asking us line puke to partake but they will have none. Is this just the nature of the beast? Is this normal?

thanks I’ll hand up and listen..

 

Your reply was a lot more civil than what I had intended to write. I’ll let this stand as the appropriate response.